EP 2014: Innovating chocolate experiences with Cielo Cantoni and Niklas Begau

Cielo and Niklas are the founders of ChocNchoc a chocolate startup that is changing the way how we experience chocolate.

Both of them grew up in large corporations like Jacobs and Mars and they still work next to running their chocolate startup.

In this episode learn about innovating chocolate, how the idea of ChocNchoc came to life and how they got a chocolate factory in Switzerland to produce their first products.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcast, Spotify or other platforms.

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EP 2014: Innovating chocolate experiences with Cielo Cantoni and Niklas Begau

Cielo and Niklas are the founders of ChocNchoc a chocolate startup that is changing the way how we experience chocolate.
Both of them grew up in large corporations like Jacobs and Mars and they still work next to running their chocolate startup.

In this episode learn about innovating chocolate, how the idea of ChocNchoc came to life and how they got a chocolate factory in Switzerland to produce their first products.

Guest Links: 

Niklas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/niklas-begau/

Cielo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mar%C3%ADa-cielo-cantoni-a9a37496/

CHOCNCHOC on the web: https://chocnchoc.com/

CHOCNCHOC on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/choc.n.choc/

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Transcript:

(This Transcript is AI generated)

Hello and welcome to the Human Innovation Podcast, the podcast for innovative leaders. I'm your host, Jens Heitland, and today my guests are Cielo Cantoni and Niklas Begau. Cielo and Niklas are the founders of ChockNChock, a chocolate startup that is changing the way how we experience chocolate.

Both of them grew up in large corporate, as an example in Jakobs and Mars. They still work next to running their chocolate startup. And in today's episode, we will be diving deeper into chocolate, but also learn how the idea of ChockNChock came to life and how they got a chocolate factory in Switzerland produced their first products. Please welcome to the show Cielo and Niklas.

Hello, Cielo Hello and Niklas, welcome to the show. How are you doing? Hi. 

Good. Hi. We're doing fine. Yes. Excited 

to be here. Yeah, it's the first time I do an interview where I've two people in one screen and me a little bit to the other side. So for everyone who is watching this on YouTube or everywhere else, it's a special occasion and a special team.

So looking forward to learn more of what you guys are doing. But before we go into chocolate and innovating the world, how people can experience chocolate, let's talk a little bit about you as individuals and together, let's start with Cielo. I'm pronouncing the name most probably 10,000 times wrong, so sorry for that.

Sorry for every Argentine out there. Let's start with Ija. Who are you and how did you get to where you are today? 

Yes. As you already well introduced, I come from Argentina. It was my dream to come to Europe to study and then life took me to stay here. I'm a food engineer as a background and I'm really, really passionate about innovation and especially food innovation. 

Niklas fellow German . 

Yes. Fellow German. Yeah, exactly a connecting factor. So, uh, Mia, how did I end up here? So, um, yeah, I'm German and uh, that's also where Cielo and I met. I went for studies to the Netherlands, but now I'm always already for 10 plus years, I'm in, in chocolate working for some of the big names in chocolate currently working for Mars.

So everybody has had at one point in the time one of the products in their hands. And um, yes, that's me. 

Chocolate. Let's start wider before we go into the interesting, innovative stuff you, you do. So how did you get into chocolate? 

I got into chocolate through working for one of the giants, so Mondelez International at that time.

And I couldn't fall in love more with chocolate. I think chocolate is so close to people and to happiness, right? Whenever you fit in, you want to have chocolate so that's where the journey started in 2014 when I started working in England. Yeah. And since then I've worked in different type of food products as well, but chocolate is super close to my heart 

As a food.

Food, not food. food engineer. Yeah, that's, that's the German English. So food . As a food engineer, what is special when you produce and think about chocolate than other products? 

Yeah, it's, think, it's thinking about the moment when chocolate will be enjoyed by people. And there for me, what I like is then designing chocolates and products that people are gonna love and enjoy.

So that's, that's the part that, let's say sparks in me and it's the most fun part actually, the whole part of, of the tasting and enjoying the chocolate experience. 

Te tell me more about designing. How can you design chocolate? 

The world of chocolate is immense and especially, uh, there are so many possibilities in how you can play with ingredients, which different flavors.

Um, there really, there are limited combinations you could do to the most crazy stuff. And both Nicolas and I have tried a lot of things in chocolate. Some which maybe you would never thought, Hmm, would this really go well? But we've, we've tried a lot of that. Um, so I think the creativity comes a lot for us in, uh, let's say flavor or the taste experience.

But it could also of course come in when you come to chocolate, thinking about the sickness of the bar, because that's how it fits in your mouth so that the whole, uh, experience is better. So there, there's a lot around the world of, of creating a chocolate, uh, 

for people. Yeah. And for me it's also, if I consider it, it's really what's happening in chocolate.

So everybody, the high emotional aspect of it, right? Everybody still knows when they got their first chocolate piece or their first confectionary from grandma, grandpa, or the parents. And chocolate is, whenever you talk about it, everybody is lightening up a little bit more, right? And, uh, you just said a party, you just said a get together and everybody's talking about what they're doing and the moment you're bringing up that you work in, or with chocolate, it's, it's a door open and everybody is super excited to just learn more and know more.

Um, even though it's such a day-to-day, um, product we are always having, um, there is so little people actually know about. And that's extremely exciting. And obviously to share this. And once you are in there, and then also on the other side, on the professional producing, changing, designing things, then people always want to know how the world, uh, as Willy Wonka actually is.

Right. And that's it. Yeah. . 

Yeah I can't imagine that I still remember when we met first time in person where you told me a similar story. I mean, if I'm telling someone, Hey, I, I help corporates in innovating, it's like, yeah, okay, boring. Let's let, let's talk about beer or something you mentioned chocolate and everyone's like, oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, 

exactly. And everybody has an opinion that is also, it's, it's so nice, right? And everybody has a feeling to it and everybody has heard something, um, about good and bad things or has a, uh, favorite flavor or has a favorite brand, all of this. And, uh, there's always something to share. And the nice thing is on a lot of aspects, there is no right or wrong.

There is just preferences. And that's, uh, super good to talk about. 

Yeah. Before we go further into chocolate, how did you find each other?

 For us was study, so we both had the background in, in food technology, food engineering, meaning how do you produce food in a, in a, a great scale, right? Um, and then we met together here in the Netherlands during studies and then actually our path.

Yeah, kind of, we, we drifted apart a little bit and everybody was living in different countries as Cielo mentioned already being in the uk or I was in France or Germany, or here in the Netherlands. And then fate brought us together and where we are right now living in the same city in Utrecht in the Netherlands.

And there we then connected again. And also the bad times around Covid brought some good aspects to it as well because you spend way more time together and then have time to think on what do you wanna do else, um, outside of what you're currently doing and rethinking certain things.

And that's how we discussed more about ambitions as well. That's what has brought us together. Maybe you have something to add? 

Could be, no, no. That's, I think you explained really well, but I think for us, what brought, well, we became friends which of course is really important.

I think that's foremost. Yes. Yes. And, uh, for us, the most important to, yeah, starting this journey was to just have fun, have fun together, and do, um, what we really dreamt of, um, that, you know, started shaping together, as Niklas said in 2020. And then continue all the way to take us to where we are today.

So, yeah. How was that in the beginning? Was it straight away, let's do something around chocolate, or was it, Hey, let's test different things. 

I think it was very straightforward that, of course it needed to be something in the line of food, because that's where we come from. Um, for myself I'm working for such a long time in chocolate already.

Cielo has that background as well and it's always this innovative and, and r and d aspect to it. And we wanted to just create our own. So it was very, very early on and very quickly narrowed down to, yeah, but we wanna work in chocolate. We want to create something there. Yeah, I think that was, that was undoubtedly one of the first 

aspects.

Yeah. And I think it comes together when, when you start thinking, okay, I really want to do something of my own, you also normally need to pair with, okay, what do you know? More or less how to do well. Right? And then that's where for us, you know, both things led to, to it being, uh, chocolate, what, um, yes, change a lot along the way.

It's of course, our idea and how it came to be, let's say, the products we've launched today, you know, that has transformed and shifted into very different directions as, as we went through this kind of creative journey together of. or finding what was the right thing to, to finally, you know, launch a 

product.

I think as well, it's very interesting to know or to experience then how a vague idea you maybe have, uh, is then crystallizing more and more, right. And then, yeah, you need to make it almost bulletproof or waterproof. You're, you're checking certain things. I always had the idea, I maybe wanted to do a and once you're going a little bit closer to it or narrow it down, you're realizing, ah, but it's not as feasible or in reality, it maybe doesn't look as appealing to me anymore and maybe I want to do something else or something different.

Um, and really to check this, uh, I think that's very, a nice one. And then also sometimes a scary exercise to do because it's always nice to have a dream and all of a sudden you make this dream into reality. Um, and that, that is on both sides. Yes, very. , 

I want to go back later into backtracking from today towards 2020, when you started out, and how you got to where you are today, but before we do that, let's talk about traveling.

There's one tagline on your website which says ChockNChock is the dream of two friends, extremely passionate about chocolate and traveling. How does traveling fit into the picture. 

So actually it has to do on how we met. So when Niklas and I met Flo studies, we lived, uh, actually in five different countries within two years.

So we've been moving a lot along and, uh, we, we love that. We, I think we've both always been very passionate about traveling, about discovering. I think the part of traveling that's more interesting is really the part of discovering new countries, right? Discovering, uh, new people, but also for us, we are foodies.

So what are the foods around the world? What, what are those flavors, those aromas and those adventures that they're out there? Um, and uh, yeah, I have to say we are, uh, very privileged and lucky to be able to today, you know, travel pretty much anywhere around the world and, and go and, and explore, you know, go always for, for more and for the unknown.

Yeah, I think the traveling aspect and also, um, once you have done friends, well if Cielo says we are lucky enough to have this, once you have friends all over the world, it's a, it's a bittersweet thing. So number one is, you know, you will have somewhere, a home or somebody close to you at the other side of the world, but at the same time.

And I think a lot of people experience this, they seem so far away and still the traveling is that one aspect because I think we all can agree a real face-to-face, a real life meeting, um, is comparable to nothing else. And we all experience this also during Covid and the pandemic, but I think that whole traveling aspect to always be in mind of, yeah, I could travel somewhere else, I could visit some friends, I can meet them.

And uh, that's always nicer to experience also the other cultures there. And that was really a binding character for the two of us. Yeah. 

I, I can't agree more with the food things because food is connecting you to different cultures in different countries. I've lived in six countries until today. And of course the food was always different. I'm grown up in Germany like Niklas, but I've lived in Russia. The food was different than it was in Denmark or in Sweden or in Spain or now in the Netherlands. There's always something different, and for sure when it comes to chocolate even more, because it's very specific.

I can tell you from a beer perspective, it's definitely different , , 

and I think food tells so much about the culture in itself. Uh, the. The things people do around food. It's almost like a ceremony, right? It's, uh, the things people eat how they celebrate it talking about different cultures when they eat right, the moment, eh, when Cielo and I, when we are together, it's always, I rather want to eat earlier in Cielo, in the, in the Latin American kind way rather late.

So that already tells something. What kind of ingredients are we using for cooking? These kind of aspects. And they're so different. But again, that, and I think that's a nice combination. It's, there is no right or wrong, it's just different in preferences and how you learn it and how you maybe. Um, yeah.

Learned it later on as well. Exactly how I set with chocolate. And then you have a discussion and, uh, let's be honest, then we eat somewhere at a decent time between the two times we are preferring maybe. Yeah. . 

Yeah. I think there's one more element of food, which is super interesting and I think the nicest as well is that it's actually connection, right?

It connects people. It's the moment of bringing people together, friends, family, having fun, sharing. Um, and yeah, that's, that's what's, uh, the super nice part about it. 

Yeah, exactly. The sharing aspect, and I think that's where you talk about your day, that's where you talk about what you did or what you are going to do.

Uh, so that aspect is, yeah, is super close to also, uh, what we say in terms of we were sharing our passion we have. Um, and that's, that's I think where this traveling aspect together with the food aspect really resonates with us. 

Yeah. So before we go into 2020 Cielo, how is it working with the German?

Amazing. It's amazing. . 

It's really good, I have to say. Um, Niklas is of course, brings a lot of structure and amazing organization. Also. He, personally, it's a lover of excel files, so, you know, uh, a lot of our staff, it's nailed there. Uh, which it's, it's great. So I, I have to say I got used to that. Thank you.

Yeah, I, I, I always laugh about that as well, because we, Germans and I've seen this meeting Germans around the world. We have this structural element is an area everyone, some a little bit further, some a little bit less, but still compared to other cultures, specifically more southern cultures, the, the German have it in their dna.

good. Le let's, let's go to 2020. So what was the starting point where. , you both sat next to each other. Let's try, let's do this. 

Yeah. So I think it started first to bring a bit of background. So we were both before 2020, I think that two years before traveling massively both for work because of our roles there in a big fmcg. But also for personal reasons, because as we were saying, we, we love traveling. So it was always, uh, for. Getting together, even having to plan it, you know, okay, when are we both in Utrecht and can we meet? Um, and 2020 when, uh, when Covid hit really, of course, changed, uh, well everyone's lives and also ours, and brought the time for then us to meet together more often.

We, uh, as being close friends, let's say, became this kind of the Covid group. You know, you had to choose your small group of friends or family to meet. And, um, for us that was it. 

And that was kind of, kind of intense as well. Right? Let's be honest. So beforehand, as we, we like each other are good friends, but then you, you were used to not seeing each other for long, long stretches and, uh, you still stayed in contact and all of a sudden you see each other three, four times a week.

Uh, having dinner together. Yeah. And then discussing things. And also I think that's that whole aspect of. really being forced to be slowed down. We all experienced it because the world was all of a sudden turning so slow for good and bad effects. And I think rather quickly re-experienced than let's use this good momentum of it to, to reconsider on certain things.

Okay, what do you want to do? Um, thinking about, well, what do you maybe want to achieve in other aspects? And then really realizing, um, yeah, your own things, your own projects, and just taking a knee, taking a pause and, uh, reevaluating some things. And that's really where we then came up with, all right, um, put your money where your mouth is, right?

And, uh, you want to talk about it, you want to do something like this, then, uh, then go ahead and maybe do it now. Right. So 

was it like you, I I, there, there are always different moments. Was it during celebrating a chocolate or was it during getting drunk or was it kind of really strategic? Hey, let's, 

how, how was this?

It was really strategic choice over a beer, let's call it like this, , there was a beer or wine involved, uh, over multiple evenings of discussing it, I think as well. Being more free. Yeah, yeah. 

Really sitting on the couch, you know, before watching a movie together or something. Just, yeah. Chatting over a beer and that's how it all came 

together.

Yeah. I still remember how, so it was now watching a movie or just having food and then talking about it and, uh, you're just dropping this idea of, yeah, okay, what does it mean now this new situation of Covid and then just being more free in your mind and, uh, based on this, that wasn't a close discussion on one evening, but then it kept on going because I think that was really the benefit.

You could kind of connect these thought. , the one evening you have done this already, the next day or the day after, where in real life, before Covid, it would've taken two months, three months before we see each other again. , right? Yeah. And like this, it was really a, a, a boost of bringing these ideas up and these actually desires or requirements from ourselves.

Yeah. 

Yeah. What was the first idea when you said, okay, let's do something together. It's chocolate. What was the first idea?

The first idea? I think it came with, uh, the subscription model. So I think it was a bit related with Covid. We know we were all at home and we're like, Hey, we need something that excites us, . We need something. And I'm sure everyone is waiting for this. So it came, how could we bring something to people's home in form of a surprise to saying like, wow, I've got a treat for me.

So I think that's the first starter which came with the idea. No. 

Yeah. And it was also realizing that, um, exactly how C was saying, the excitement. I mean, everybody had watched so much Netflix already, so any evening that is different to being at home, watching Netflix or being at home and reading the third book, uh, anything that is different to this, um, was already 

warmly welcomed. And therefore, I think. Uh, that was really the, the trigger as well of this box of bringing the excitement to people and they could be surprised and it's actually feasible. And at that time you also, nobody knew how long will this crazy time last. 

Yeah. The interesting thing is when we chatted before you said, we really dive deep into the product, which you of course do, but you discussed the business model straight away in the early stages because the subscription model is basically the revenue and the business model of how do you put the things in front of people or the chocolate in front of people.

Yeah. It's quite interesting. 

There, there are nice aspects to, it so I think our background coming from the really hands-on, okay, how do you create a product that was rather clear for us on how to do it? So how is then. The angle to it and how do we get behind it? So, and that would've been, or is still the subscription model or is then also the connection to a travel?

I think that is a, that is a nice angle and for us that still works. And it was very early on. I also still remember is where we discussed, okay, why are we doing this? So, and that's where this came from, that we are saying we want to share our passion for it because we said it's, it's, that is the main motivator for us to do it, is really, we are loving chocolate, we are loving this thing.

We are experiencing it in every day to day life. As said, at a party to talk about it, you, you get so much in return almost, and emotions, let's do this on a bigger scale. And that was really the driver for it. 

Let's talk about the product you are selling right now and then we go back to starting from we have this idea subscription.

So what is the product you're selling today? 

Yeah, so we are selling a new chocolate experience. So it's a chocolate box inspired by traveling. So this idea is you get this box, you open it, and you immerse yourself into going somewhere around the world through chocolate. So we develop, uh, chocolate tablets inspired by the food culture of this country.

We wanna take 

you to. And I think the. Unique point to it is that we develop really the recipes for the chocolate, as we said. That's our background, and that's where also our passion came from, right? In researching or in innovating there. And, uh, we are developing these flavors really in accordance to that country.

And it's not necessarily where the chocolate, the cocoa comes from, but really we want to travel somewhere. We, we find a destination. And then, um, basically how can we encapsulate that food, these flavors into the culture, into the chocolate, and uh, then ideally ship it in nice, neat tablets and nice neat bars to your door that you can experience it. And they're not only stopping there, because we also realize it's not only the chocolate and the food that conveys a culture, but there's way more. So there is music to it, there is maybe some artistic aspect to it. And to really bring all of these things also in. Yeah.

Gi give me the example of, I think it was Argentinian box, the first one, right? What a 

coincidence. Huh? . That it's Argentinian, I mean, sitting together with an Argentinian one. But, uh, I think, um, it's a little bit more difficult to bring the German box on the market with direct small flavors, but, uh, challenge, except that for the future , 

it's then including Bratwurst and beer or whatever.

Broth 

beer. Exactly. Yeah. 

Let's go deeper. So there's a box that comes to me as the person that has subscribed to your service who wants to get a box every month or in different cycles. And it's the Argentinian box. What is it to open the box? What is it? What is inside? 

Yeah. So you open it and you immediately feel, wow, this is a treat for me.

And inside you find the three or six chocolate tablets, three different flavors really inspired by the Argentinian food culture. Here we were actually quite adventurous with some of the ingredients, really developing also recipes that, let's say are balance and pretty much most of the audience would like.

Within the box, you also would have a box back guide, and that includes a tasting journey. So a little bit of explanation which notes, which flavors do you expect to find as, as you taste the different bars. But also full immersion in Argentina in telling you a little bit about the country, but also you have a playlist, covering a bit different genres of music.

And we collaborated with a photographer from Patagonia and you received that in the form of a postcard. So it's one of her beautiful postcards they're also come in the box and lastly there's also pairing with yerba mate that's something so embedded in the Argentinian culture. So it's some sort of tea, not really tea, but you could think it's a stretch and we really would like to invite everyone to, to give it a try.

 It's not just the chocolate. Like, Hey, I'm, I'm ordering chocolate at Amazon. I even don't know if you can order chocolate in Amazon, but everyone knows how that works. There's a, there's, there's a person coming at your door ringing and throwing it into your hands. , which might be still the same, at least that part of the experience.

But the, the other part is difference, where you bring people along through the tasting guide in experience the chocolate in a completely different way than you would do because you can't buy the chocolates with the flavors and tastes profiles

in a normal story, you can't buy them in a normal store. This is extraordinary. Only done for this specific box, right? 

Exactly we are creating them directly for these, and it's about the experience and it's, it's all coming from the point of do you want to eat quickly chocolate before you go to your, on your bike and you bike to your next appointment or to your, to sports, which a lot of times that's the occasion where people also eat chocolate.

Um, sometimes a little bit mindlessly, which is, uh, we've all fallen for that one. But for us it's more that aspect. Take your time, take your moment, uh, take these five, 10 minutes, 50 minutes of rest and experiencing your moment and having then your tea, having it with a music. Um, reading about the chocolate, reading where it comes from and it's all really put together for that experience. And also what do you taste at what time? So really you put that piece of chocolate in your mouth and how does it melt?

What are the certain peaks of different flavors that are coming? And that I think really excites people as well. And the nice aspect is people know this already, so it's not so strange. We know this for wine. Definitely. We know this also for coffee. Definitely. That's where it gets more and more. So people know this.

And beer is the same, right? Different notes are coming through at different times. And uh, for chocolate it's growing more and more. And it's a big market of course, but, uh, it's also that people appreciate it way more and more. , uh, that they get really dragged into that area of, it's a really full world of chocolate, what you can experience there of different flavors.

It's not only everything, the same milk chocolate. No. There is so much out there. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how, how can I see that as a customer? So I'm most probably going to your website and then I can select the Argentinian box and other boxes from different countries. How does that way 

Yeah. Ideally we have then multiple, multiple boxes.

Uh, currently we basically offer one box, that's our first one. The starting box. We have the next ideas already ready and we know what we wanna produce and where we are going to continue further. And then in the future, it would literally be you order that one box or the other box, or in the future it would also be, it would rather be the surprise.

You don't know which box is coming next. And we are surprising you with something new, with a new flavor where you're going to travel to. 

Yeah. So I'm, I'm subscriber. I want to subscribe. How do I get a box every week, every month? What is the cycle, at least right now? What are the things you, you're looking into at least into your offer for the people who are already exciting?

You can go to the website, it's done below this episode. Wherever you see that, have a look at it. It's definitely worth it. . 

So far you can buy a one-off because we want you to invite people to taste this one. Right. And also get feedback. Cause uh, as important as you know, it is in startups that what we like to do, right?

Launch something. Yeah. And cook modifying it. Try and improving it as we go. So that's why now we launched as one of the first edition, which is Inspired Discovering Argentina. We are discussing how we launch now, the subscription, and that we are looking at a frequency of every four 

months.

Hmm. So every four months I get a new box. This from an idea perspective, except the demand is so high that people want to have it every day in they will. And then, then we 

obviously think about something else. Hey, when that demand is there, then hey, yes, we're talking about different things then obviously.

No, 

I, I understand. And that's it important to mention for, for the listeners as well. You are a startup. You are doing this next to your corporate jobs where you work with the, like, the biggest companies in this industries, um, and doing kind of the high value experience version specifically right now for Argentinian taste and flavor and having this experience.

But of course there the future is open. I mean is if the demand after this podcast, of course go, goes up 10 x or whatever, um, there are possibilities. , 

there are definitely possibilities always to, to scale up and we would be extremely happy, right? So already the responses we've received, and I think everybody who does a startup and everybody who is so invested, uh, with a passion in there, once you really put this piece out there and say, and decide, all right, now we are communicating it to people.

I think that is really such a crucial and great moment. And when you then get your first feedback, That is amazing. And that is, uh, luckily for us it's, it's mainly positive feedback, but also when you sometimes hear something else, yeah, but you could have worked on this or you can do that, that's so great to receive.

And um, and really coming to the point of yeah, people were really invested in it. They really thought about it and they spend their time of giving me some feedback that is so valuable and it's so great and, uh, yeah. Therefore that's, that's for me right now, really big driver. And therefore if we are 10 Xing it amazing.

Right. , maybe even a hundred Xing. But let's see, . Yeah, because I have tasted the chocolate, I have not gotten a full package. Um, but I can tell everyone 

who's, you need to change this. You need to get the full package. I mean, no. What were 

we 

thinking that you had, you got a personalized tasting with one of the co-founders.

Right, exactly. I think that, uh, that has a certain value 

saying that that's a, that that's a very, very special deal. . Yeah, exactly. No, let's, let's go back. So what I love about this, the, the whole experience aspect, of course for, for, for those who, who don't believe it, but you guys are professional chocolate makers, like you are not a startup starting from, Hey, let's do something and put something together, you know, what you're doing.

When it comes to the chocolate itself, what is super interesting for me that you think about the other elements as well, not just how can we make aian chocolates in six different flavors or three different flavors. I think I got three at least. Let, let's talk about how did you come up with the idea of the tasting guide?

I think the issue was where we came from and where we thought that really can add value is also when you're discussing with a lot of people, the question most of them have is. , what is your favorite chocolate? Right? And my answer most of the time is, if you find a chocolate that's kind of well done, and let's be honest, you know this already, then find the one you like the most and then that's your favorite chocolate.

And that's the best chocolate there is. But there are certain parameters on certain things you can consider, and that is where does the chocolate come from, right? What are the conditions? How is it produced? Are the ingredients good? That's always in food, the case. If you use good ingredients it's very likely that you're making a good product and a good meal.

And that's the same there and there. We then really thought, apparently for us it is, since we're working so long with this already, that is super much the status quo, but so many people don't know it yet or really wanna learn more. And that's where we thought that's a great angle to share and then to really share on how can you taste chocolate and what can you.

Experience there. And it's not only sweet or bitter. No, there is so, so much more. And I think that was really a good angle to do this and then to combine even more information in there. Yeah, 

yeah. For me, the, the opportunity was really to, uh, bring us, we were saying so, uh, People really want to start becoming a little bit more of a connoisseur, right.

And learn how to taste. And we, we see that in wine so much as we were saying and in coffee. So it's more how could we bring that to chocolate and how could we also, um, offer, uh, let's say really a tasting adventure. So for us, uh, was more not giving you the chocolate, you already know the, like milk chocolate with almond, you know that it's your favorite yogo spice.

But it was more inviting people to taste something new and see if they like it, right? And in our case, inspired by traveling somewhere about the, around the world and that food culture. But, uh, for us knowing how to combine best different ingredients to really create those kind of wow flavor explosions to say, well, I never thought that I would like this but I do.

Right. 

Yeah. I think one aspect as well in, in comparing it was, uh, In, in wine, of course you have sommeliers and you have people who know their wine very well. And then similar stories happened over coffee and over beer over the last years and, uh, decades as well. It was, if you think about it, 30 years ago, everybody was still having in the office or at home filter coffee.

And now all of a sudden, or not all of a sudden it was quite a journey. Um, people are really basically baristas at home, right? And they all have their big machines and they know at what pressure and what temperatures and what fineness of the coffee ground they need to use. And similar on beer. And there are so many new micro breweries right now and there are so many people who in a positive way, geek out on coffee and on beer and obviously on wine and on chocolate.

It's growing and growing more and more. And um, yeah, and we think we can share this as well. And there is such a, such a nice opportunity because people. Kind of want to geek out on chocolate as well and want to know more about it and want to learn more about it. 

Let's talk about production. I loved the story when you told me how you got into, I think it was Switzerland.

Was it Switzerland? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. How did you get into a producer or into a factory? Into Switzerland and they're producing the chocolate. . 

 It started with, uh, contacts and network we had from working again, with, with Giants in, in, in the chocolate manufacturing business.

But, uh, through there we got with some very small, uh, producers located in Switzerland. So we started discussions with them and, uh, I think it was, it was, you know, really interesting business discussions when you also come from, we are so small and have all these crazy ideas of combining ingredients, but finding, uh, people who are so experts as well.

So many years of expertise in the chocolate business from different angles. Um, but it was then until the time we went there, so Nicolas and I traveled to Switzerland on our first, let's say, official business trip and walking into this place. Um, it was an office, beautiful surrounding by Swiss mountains, but being there with one of the really best, uh, small chocolate sources in the world who are sourcing from really hand selection of beans to make them the.

Chocolate mass for us, which will then become our chocolate tablets. And sitting in this meeting room, uh, thinking we are talking about our business. Like we, we would've been in meetings like this many times for the other jobs we work on, right? Because big companies won't give you that fantastic opportunities.

But being in that meeting saying, this is for our startup, I really wanted to cry of happiness. It was like, wow. I mean, it, it really could not have been. 

Yeah, it was really inspiring to be there to discuss with, uh, yeah, with these people as well who shared such a big knowledge and also passion for it and a certain amount of craziness, let's be honest, and, and to be there and talk and yeah, and just bounce off ideas as well.

That was really amazing and it is. Is also saying, yeah, it's rather, uh, small amounts of chocolate still huge amounts of chocolate, but also comparable to what maybe the, the big producers are doing. But therefore, you really go here for, for qualities that instead of quantity and you really see it, it's really smaller batches or really hand selected quality.

And that is just amazing. And that's really, we went out of this, uh, out of this trip and we said almost, yeah, we wanted to cry. I wanna do this every day. She said, I wanna do this every day for the rest of my life. And in the, in the end, yes, we've done this already, but really with a different angle because you are, you're doing your own thing right now.

And that was amazing. It was really good. It was really nice. Yeah. And then of course you have Swiss chocolate. That's great, right? . 

Yeah, I agree. How did you get this funded so that you can talk to one of the factories and they're producing your amazing chocolate? How did you get to that level?

I 

think the funding was, first of all credibility. So there was, I think having it in, in our background to know what we are talking about, that massively helped. And in terms of funding, then further on it is, um, so how invested are you Cielo and how invested are you, Niklas? Okay, let's go ahead. It's our thing and let's go for it.

So the funding currently comes from us and from our energy and, and that's what it is. And I think in terms of. The starting point of getting this driven. That's not as much money actually, uh, until you get to the idea and really crystallize it more. It's more, uh, persistent kind of funding. I think it's really your own time and your energy.

You, you drive in and willingness to, to stay awake until three o'clock at night and still work on something after you've done your normal job. Right? Yeah. And then say, all right, but still feeling energized and that's so cool, right? To, to still work and work, but it isn't working and that's amazing. Sorry, that was my funding story.

I don't know how yours 

was. I think you described it very well. And, and of course if we think the, we would love that, you know, these flies that with people, that they love it as much as we do. And then, uh, of course we could scale up and for that we would, uh, need definitely a different, uh, scale of funding.

Uh, today was more us saying, okay, do we really believe in this? Uh, then we go for it. And, and for us, it's worth it every minute just because we think there's something in there and, and we know we are gonna keep, you know, pushing and thriving for it and sharing it. Um, so that we find that space in, let's say in the chocolate market.

And, and to just say in terms of it's not only about funding and if we talk about it funding, then it almost seems like yes, it is an investment, right? And where's then your return on investment? But for me, what I realize over time is, These opportunities to being here, right. Having, having the chat with you.

Um, that is almost already the part that comes out, which I've never experienced or expected is, is having this discussion of going in discussion with other people and they're saying, what do you mean by you just made your own chocolate? Yeah, I make my own chocolate because that's, that's what I love. And then I did it.

Um, and, and this almost opened so many doors in, in further discussions. And that is, that is great. And, uh, that's super nice. So also these talks we have with other people, that is such a nice return ring on whatever time and effort you put in there. Um, yeah, it's amazing. 

Yeah. I, I brought this up because a lot of people think like, yeah, it's a startup and they, they built and, and cook, however you say that the chocolate at home, in their kitchen and.

Kind of do that you are already, when it comes to that super professional and having a factory that's doing it in one of the most pr prestige countries when it comes to chocolate. So ju that's why it was for me as well, important to highlight that. Cuz when you told me the story I was like, oh, that's cool.

There's really something in that. 

Yeah. We, we like it as well. Of course. Yeah. Um, and that's also a very interesting aspect is over time certain things become normality as well. Of course we were freaking excited when we are sitting there in the meeting in Switzerland and we still are, but then all of a sudden you start like, yeah, our chocolate is Swiss chocolate.

It's all be and it's uh, it's fair and we know where it's come from. That is, that is amazing. Right. And this, that's just the normal you are then talking about. 

Yes. But we did start with trials in our kitchen. Of course, you can imagine . 

Yeah, there was a lot of during covid as well. A lot of, um, chocolatey fingers.

Yes. Uh, yeah, hand tempering, hand molding, mixing all sorts of different ingredients and making our own chocolates to, you know, just to try, uh, different recipes, et cetera. So it, it started here, but for the first product, we are already working with , uh, manufacturing since Switzer indeed. 

Cool. Let's get to the last part of the podcast where I'm asking a couple of questions that a little bit outside of what we discussed or maybe they're connected.

If you could work, and you can answer that either or, or both together, if you could work with a project that's impacting every human being on earth, what project would you choose to work with and why?

 I'm coming from a food area and I think one, one thing I learned at the beginning, I think was the first sentence when I, when I learned something about food was you are at the right place. Because people will always eat. And I think therefore in what kind of a, yeah, I will never be out of job.

Right? Because there's always going to be food that people need. And, and that is still to this day within my mind, but I think one aspect to it is educating about this on food. Where does it come from? And um, also, What does it mean if you get your food at every point in time? Right? Ultra fast delivery, we are talking about, or we are talking about, uh, the quality of food in general.

And, uh, again, there is not necessarily a, a black and white. There are way more nuances to it. So I think it's about educating where does your daily food come from and, uh, and how do you prepare it and what does it mean? And with this, there comes so, so much because it's impacting everyone. Uh, food is such a personal topic, so I think it would really be, uh, around where does it come from and how is it produced and what does it do to you?

Uh, I think that is a, is a topic super close? 

Yeah. How about you? 

Yeah, for me, I, I would actually link it to chocolate. So, uh, chocolate starts from a cocoa port or coco, uh, in, uh, places where a lot of us who eat it today are not, uh, seen. Right. We are not there in, in, in the farms as, I mean, as, as consumers, as when, when you choose the chocolate.

So, so for me it's really being close to the supply chain from the beginning till the end, and how can you teach that more to people? Uh, but also for us, ultimately was so important to make sure we could make an impact there. Um, and uh, that's why we chose our chocolate to first b organic bio. So that was more the impact on the environment, but also so important is the people.

Yeah. Great. Next question, what advice would you give to a young innovator that's just getting started, you are already, let's say two years at least ahead.

Mine, mine would be, uh, go for what sparks in you. So if, if you love something and there's something that you, you know, you wake up in the morning and you think, wow, that gives me a smile. Go for it. Uh, it's not gonna be easy. It could, you know, have a, a long way to get there, but, uh, go for what's, what's really you're passionate about.

For me, it would be literally do it tomorrow. I'm thinking back and think, why haven't I done it before? Right? Because it, it takes a lot of time and effort and everything, but as I mentioned already, it gives a lot of energy. . And, uh, you can do it at your own pace. And the only person in between, uh, this is your own mind or your own thinking.

So, uh, literally do it. Uh, do it as soon as you can and, uh, and then this, this very obvious thing, fail fast and do your mistakes, and that's it. And, uh, we, we are maybe in the middle of a big mistake we just decided, uh, yesterday, but, but you never know. And, and that's it. So I think that is a great, that's a great part.

Yeah. 

Yeah. Beautiful. Where can people find you and how can people connect to you? 

So, uh, I think the easiest is always through social media. So we have an Instagram account and, you know, we love to be close to people there. We are happy to answer questions or, you know, get engaged. So if you, if you contact there, uh, as you will reach us.

Um, and then, uh, of course if you wanna buy our products, please go to our website. 

Yeah, and I think an add-on to this one, uh, is so definitely every message you are receiving is still either written by me or by Cielo. There is no customer support team behind this or so . So it's literally the two of us, uh, being sales, being customer support, and being, um, r and d 

there.

That's how it works in the early beginning. Exactly. It's great. Cielo, Niklas, thank you very much for being in a sh in the show on this show. It's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having us. Wa was awesome to have you. I wish you all the luck for the future. I think you have a beautiful product, a tasty, beautiful product and an amazing idea, and I'm really eager to follow you along and support as much as I can.