Job Interviews as Employees
Master job interviews by learning how to connect directly with hiring managers, handle tough questions confidently, and highlight your transferable skills. Explore practical tips to ensure successful outcomes and avoid common pitfalls in your career journey.
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Job Interviews as Employees
Job interviews are critical milestones in any career. While they can be nerve-wracking, a well-prepared candidate can turn them into opportunities to shine. This article delves into practical strategies to ace interviews, build meaningful connections, and avoid common missteps, ensuring you leave a lasting impression.
Key Takeaways for Job Interview Success
1. Direct Communication with Hiring Managers:
Whenever possible, connect with the person directly responsible for your role—often the hiring manager. HR serves as a bridge, but speaking directly with your potential boss allows you to gain clearer insights into the job’s actual expectations and priorities.
2. Recognize Interviewers Are Human Too:
Remember that the interview process can be just as challenging for interviewers. Whether it’s due to lack of preparation or nerves, they may struggle to create the perfect atmosphere. Recognizing this dynamic helps reduce pressure and fosters a more collaborative discussion.
3. The Power of Authenticity and Clarity:
• Be authentic in your responses. Attempting to project an idealized version of yourself often backfires.
• If you don’t understand a question, ask for clarification instead of guessing. This signals honesty and your desire to address their concerns accurately.
4. Addressing Gaps in Experience:
When lacking direct experience in a role, emphasize your transferable skills. A tailored CV or a strong personal story can demonstrate how your background equips you to succeed in new challenges.
5. Tackling Salary Discussions Early:
Ask about salary expectations early in the process to avoid misalignment after multiple interview rounds. Transparency helps you and the employer save time and ensures mutual understanding.
6. Prepare for Recruiter Shortcomings:
Not all recruiters or processes are perfect. Automating follow-ups and seeking updates are crucial steps in managing delays and maintaining momentum in the hiring process.
Job interviews are more than a test of your skills—they’re an opportunity to evaluate fit on both sides. By being prepared, staying authentic, and fostering open communication, you can transform interviews from daunting obstacles into rewarding steps toward your dream career.
Highlights:
00:00 Introduction to Christian and Recruitment Masterclass
00:27 Employer vs. Employee Perspective in Interviews
00:52 Basic Preparation for Job Interviews
02:13 Importance of Honesty and Asking Questions
02:45 Handling Unexpected Questions
03:48 Being Honest About Your Capabilities
04:35 Direct Communication with Hiring Managers
06:58 Avoiding Arrogance in Interviews
12:31 The Goal of Interviewers
19:05 Follow-Up and Communication Post-Interview
21:04 Structuring Your Interview Responses
25:03 Navigating Interview Questions with Examples
27:10 Discussing Salary Expectations
28:26 European Salary Disclosure Law
32:18 Balancing Detailed and Concise Answers
35:20 Applying for Roles Without Exact Experience
38:06 Common Interview Frustrations
43:01 Efficient Recruitment Processes
50:18 Final Thoughts and Q&A
Transcript:
[00:00:00] For everyone that does not know, Christian, um, was, I think you, you were a professional recruiter and now you have your own business.
Yeah. Um, but last we have in one of the Monday calls, Christian did, um, an hour masterclass on recruitment and data driven recruitment, which I highly recommend everyone that is interested in that to look into. And that was focused more from a. employer perspective. Today, I wanted to go into employee perspective.
So the people that are going into an interview, and I haven't done that for a long time as well. So I just wanted to open it up for questions from, from the team.
Sarah is joining again. I know she has questions. Now it's so in the end is What I have seen, um, recruiting people and doing job [00:01:00] interviews on the other side, most of the time at least, um, a key part is getting prepared. Never go unprepared into a job interview and, and just basics, let's, let's just iterate on basics.
For me. And, and guys and girls jump, jump in. If you have more topics for me is understanding the, the, the job you apply for. It sounds basic, but I've had people that didn't know what the job was about and even didn't read the job, um, advertisement, um, understand and research about the company. that you apply for so that you can talk about the company and ask more questions.
And maybe that's the third one, from my side. And the last one, prepare questions. Like don't go into a job interview without any questions. And that can be about the company things that you want to know. about the job, about the company, about the [00:02:00] manager, about the people that are in the call, but prepare yourself that, that you get your questions answered because it's an opportunity from both sides to get to know each other better.
Um, and maybe, yeah, last point. I like, I like people to be honest because I've had interviews where, you know, they are telling bullshit and that they still tell the bullshit. Anything to add? We talk about preparation. Tristian? I'm waiting for the others. I will kind of You will be last, okay. I will be last, sorry.
Any, any, any other?
I can add here, Evgeny, uh, probably you should be ready for, uh, any
questions [00:03:00] which you are not prepared to answer at all, because, because, uh, you should be just, um, ready, you get question you never know the answer that's sometimes happened and then you should be at least share your opinion and be honest if you don't know the exact answer but you can at least share what you think how you could deal with it
Frank, any, anything from your side? Uh, yes, I have a lot to do to say. So, uh, the last time when I was through an interview time ago, so I needed to do that, um, to be honest in your capacities, because the people is asking [00:04:00] if you can do that, that, that if you can say, no, I don't have any experience doing that.
I have experience doing that, doing that. And then you can start to do the conversation to your field, because from the perspective of the company, they are waking up always for the superhero to, to all the staff. And that's true that we can do a lot, but we can do all, um, saying what are your strengths?
Where did you go problems in the, in the, in the past? And how did you solve these kinds of challenges? No. Um, Be open and curious as well. If you have the opportunity to speak directly with the manager or. For the person who is going to be your boss, that's going to be great because normally you have a lot of filters between the, the, the job you are going to apply and the final work you're going to do.
And the only person who can solve your questions is the manager is your boss. [00:05:00] Um, the, the, the, the human resources, they are the bridge between you and your future boss. But if you try, if you can, please try to speak with them. Try to find an email or something like that to speak directly to them. Now with the technology, you can find easily the email from the person in charge.
I can say in my case, automotive industry, I was asking for the manager of color and dream, and it was with the chat GP, uh, easy to find, and then send an email and applying for that, uh, prefer a nice. as well. That is really important because the people must know you before going over there and you need to be attractive for the company because they, the.
The race is so high and today there is a lot of high quality profiles and the people is younger and they are more prepared than in the past. [00:06:00] And if you are honest saying what you can do, what you can't do, that can open you a nice path to speak with the responsible person in my point of view. Maybe I forget something, or maybe it can't help.
Yes, it could. Everyone can have an opinion and share. Tristian, who becomes the expert? I'm the expert. That's, that's correct. You are! I know! Um, there's a lot. To, to, to say right and, and where to begin. Firstly, I guess that's advice that all interviewees are actually not really aware of. Apart from the recruiters.
interviewing is [00:07:00] not the main profession of the people you are speaking to, right? So, usually they are either unprepared, which we don't hope, um, or they are as Um, nervous as you are because they also want to create a good atmosphere. They want to actually get to know you. And, um, depending on the person you're speaking with, um, they want or have to collaborate with you as teammates, or they need to work with you as your boss.
So, um, the pressure is on. Both sides, uh, and, and, and people tend to forget that, um, nobody is born a good interviewer. That much I can tell you. Um, and just because you have been recruiting for 25 years, doesn't mean you are good at interviewing as well. So, um, there are a lot of things that you can see and encounter [00:08:00] during, during those conversations.
Um, that being said, preparation is key. for everything. Specifically, you need to prepare your, um, your case, um, depending on the person you're speaking with. Usually you start with a recruiter, if it's a more or less modern, modern company. And believe it or not, most recruiters, um, have a very good understanding of the technical aspects as well.
Um, so they, Can and will deep dive into specific technical aspects. Um, and unfortunately I've experienced it quite often that, that, yeah, whoever is speaking with you, doesn't believe, you know, what you're speaking about. And they're kind of talking down to you. Um, please [00:09:00] avoid that at all costs. Um, firstly, we will always recognize that you're being arrogant.
I'm sorry to say that that harshly. Um, and we will always sort those folks out, um, because nobody wants to work with a person who, um, is talking down to you, who thinks that this is a completely useless conversation because, um, you are not speaking with the boss, you're not speaking with an expert. Um, I actually, um, had.
Several persons on director and senior director level. I sorted out because of that. Um, also having the fun to then talk to my CEO. Why did I sort out that person? I said, Firstly, he's an idiot. And secondly, um, they actually don't know what they're doing. Right? So if somebody tries to explain stuff I know is completely wrong.
Um, you will be sorted out. Um, so [00:10:00] a certain amount of courtesy is very, very well received by everybody. Um, then well, it, it, it has been mentioned, right? Be authentic, be honest. Um, ask if you didn't understand the question. Like, sorry, can you repeat that question? Uh, again? What did you mean I didn't understand you?
That's not a sign of weakness. Um, it's actually the opposite. It's a sign that you actually want to answer the question correctly and just. And I also don't want to give any answer because you think you understood what the question meant. And if you're off, you're off. That's also backfiring on you because apparently, um, the interviewer will think that, um, either he didn't understand what I asked, Or he actually doesn't know, or he just doesn't want to ask clarifying questions.
All of that is bad. Um, so just, [00:11:00] yeah, be prepared to, to, to keep asking. Be prepared to, um, yeah, try to understand what is going on during the conversation. Um, and as, as Frank said, you can't say no. You can't say, I don't know that. Um, because they will find out anyway. Um, if you have a well trained interviewer sitting in front of you and you give some kind of, um, answer on a question you actually do not really know, um, they will figure out and they will correct you.
Deep dive into that deep and they will keep asking questions, digging deeper, deeper, and deeper. And then it'll be quite apparent that you dunno, um, which again, will backfire on you. So I know it's, it's a tough game and I know everybody wants to present him or herself at their very best. Um, but sometimes, um, you [00:12:00] can't for whatever reason, uh, and you can be also open in saying, sorry.
Um. I'm a bit distracted, um, because of whatever, um, my dog died, my cat died, my goldfish died, whatever happened, right? Um, and people will understand. So they will either give you the chance to think a bit more, or if they're really good, they will say, well, if you're not, Thank you for being honest. If you're not up for a good conversation, let's reschedule to a later time, to tomorrow, to the day after.
Um, because the, our goal, and that's something, um, you also should, um, should, should be fully aware of, everybody interviewer's goal is to hire a person. Our goal is not to reject you. Um, our goal is to hire someone. Um, and if possible, the most suitable person for the role. Um, and that helps a lot. keeping up [00:13:00] a good, a good mood during, during the interview to always assume the best.
Uh, and to really be yourself. I guess that's the most important, um, advice I can give you from the interviewer side. Um, be yourself, be authentic. Don't try to be somebody else. Um, because it will be kind of found out at a later stage, most likely during the interview process. Um, or if it's not so good, uh, during your probationary period, and then you're out of the job again.
So, um, that is the most important thing and to really, um, yeah, don't, don't try to act somebody you're not, or don't try to, um, yeah, to impress someone with skills and knowledge you do not have to the extent you're speaking about. Um, so it, it's, it's a thin [00:14:00] line you're walking, but it's important to, to keep, keep that in mind.
Um, I have a small comment on the email sending thing. Um, it's so annoying. If everybody would send me or the hiring manager an email, um, we would reject everybody. immediately. Don't, please do not do that. You can send a very, very short email after an interview saying, thank you for the good conversation, if it was good.
Um, and that's it. Everything else. is not very well received, at least not by the people I met in the past 16 years of interviewing. Um, it's seen as intruding, uh, into your decision space. Um, and it doesn't, it doesn't really help. Um, and that's, if, if that email is being read, um, let's say 70 percent of the times people will [00:15:00] just delete it.
Because if you're a hiring manager and you get an email from a random person saying I'm applying for that role, um, that doesn't necessarily mean that the person or that the hiring manager can see you in the tool or in the, in the ATS or has the time to look it up and then decide whether it's a good fit or not.
Um, in any way, Um, it's, um, it's a waste of your time and it's a waste of the company interviewer's time. Sorry to say that.
Good. Questions? Penny,
Sam, you're on mute. That's really interesting because normally we speak from the side of the person who is looking for the role, but Christian is speaking from the other side of the conversation. And that is an amazing point of view because In [00:16:00] our case, we are thinking, no, the people don't respond, but that they get thousands of emails per day due to platforms, new recommendations.
I don't know how they get the information, but they get a lot. And that is really important for me to know because, To be brave. I was asking a chat DPT, how to reach different people. Um, maybe that is the reason why I never got an answer because I was intruding the space of the guy, of the person who was taking the decision.
That is an amazing point of view because from my side, as a professional, I just want to go over there, but they are professionals as well, and they don't want to get intruded by the person who's looking for the role. Hey, Christian. Thank you, man. That is an amazing light and point of view for me because from this side of the, of the, of the moon is really different.
It's anything is dark. I [00:17:00] think, I think it also, it, it de, it really depends if you are applying for a specific role or what, what, what type of interaction you're looking for. If you, if you have applied and then reach out to the person or if you're trying to connect with the person on other topics. I think it really depends on what it is.
But obviously if you, if you, if you have applied for the role and then just sent next to applying to that, to, to the hiring manager, then most of the people are not reacting. Agree. Yeah. Maybe you're used from a sales perspective. If you want to keep remembering, send an email every day. Uh, sure way to get rejected.
I need to say something as well. So our recruiter spoke time [00:18:00] ago. He was really clever doing the technical part. He was really clever. Uh, she told me at the end of the conversation, he was an engineer doing different stuff for motor, uh, sports, and he was really amazing during the conversation. That is one of, uh, a lot.
He was amazing.
Let's, let's get Sarah the possibility to ask questions. You're so humble.
Do you hear me now? Yes. Yeah, I think so. So far.
No, we can't hear you. Oh, we can't hear you anymore. We can't hear you.
Now? At least on, yes. Now, yes.
So I, I see your point from the [00:19:00] recruiter point of, of view. And if I were a recruiter, I would think the same. But from the other side, what I see as well, my experience is like a big gap and lack of information at all. So. Um, it's like you have the interview and then maybe you don't get an answer for weeks and nobody tells you, gives you an update or anything.
And I'm the first one that I always refrain from contacting because I feel like, I don't know, we just had the call last week. I don't know, no, but then after two weeks I do reach out and And sometimes it's very frustrating because you reach out and finally you get all of them and then they're like, Oh yeah, no, in the end we chose someone else.
Excellent. But you could have sent an email, uh, something, I don't know. So I think there's also like a lot of bad practice in HR and, [00:20:00] and yeah, for me, they're not my best friends. I usually see that things go further Transcribed When I get in touch with the hiring manager, my experience so far has always been more positive.
They've been like more active and they got things moving, even if at the end I didn't get the job because it was not a match, but it was always faster. That was my impression. Yeah, maybe before Christian jumps in. That's, that's a good hint. always ask for the next step if the other side is not providing it.
So every, every time ask for what is the next step? When, when, when, when do we have like contact again? So that, that you know what's going to happen. And usually, at least in my case, they will tell you, Hey, in the next two weeks, whatever you should hear from us, or it's tomorrow or in three days. Evgeny, you have a question.
[00:21:00] Yes. Thank you. Uh, I have a question, uh, to Christian. Do you have any recommendation, uh, about structure of interview? If you are preparing to interview with the, I don't know, with the hiring manager, should you have, I don't know, uh, some, uh, Plan what to start with, what to focus. If you don't get a direct question, you can,
I don't know, you can prepare your story, for example, something. I don't know. I'm just, what, what do you think about this? Uh, I will answer that after, um, something for, for, for, for Sarah. Um, I really need to apologize for a lot of fellow recruiters, uh, because they do not have. A proper process in place. Um, and if you [00:22:00] ask me, I do not understand why they don't get back to you, because actually you know after a day or you should know after a day, and it's not hard to send out an automated email saying, sorry, I'm still waiting for feedback, and I will come back to you as soon as possible.
That's Not rocket science. And actually that's one of the best uses we have for AI and process automation. Um, on the other hand, if those folks do not have their processes completely under control, um, that's. a sure sign that the rest of the company also does not have the processes under real control, um, which for me is a red flag that maybe I don't want to work down.
Unless you're very, very strong, uh, and have a very strong will to change things. Even if you run against the wall every single day. Um, if you want to do that, do it. Otherwise, probably look [00:23:00] for, um, for other companies who have a bit more structure in the processes. Um, you can ask. If you do not get anything, you can ask, let's say, after a week.
That, that's a recommendation from mine. If you didn't hear, ask, come back to them, send, drop them an email after a week. What's going on? I had the interview. And if you don't hear back, delete it. It's, it's done right. It's super frustrating. And, um, the candidate experience is, is, is, Below zero. But unfortunately, there are so many companies around who just do not stick to that normal things, right?
Like answering or sending a rejection email if you don't want to move forward with a candidate. It's, it's bad.
That being said, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm super, super sorry. [00:24:00] Yeah, I don't want to. Everyone that is recruiter, what's the other masterclass? How to do that data trip? Yeah, shameless, shameless self promotion. I'm there to change that. Exactly. Reach out to Christian. Um, then when it comes to the Afghanis, um, question, um, If the interviewers, the persons that are kind of conducting the interview, do not have a structure in place, um, it's their bad because they do not learn anything out of the interview.
Um, so, if you really want to, if you're in such a situation, um, Focus on your strength, right? Um, you, you know what they're asking for. You saw that the job ad. And then really just focus on [00:25:00] what is being asked for. What are your goals? What do you need to do in the role? And then just speak with valid examples from your experience.
How you got there. Could do that what you did in the past and what your experience will bring to the company if they don't ask questions Um, it's it's completely up to you. You can do a monologue Um and keep talking for 30 minutes And showing them how good you are. It's it's they are bad, right? In the end, there is a downside because you do not know whether you are the person they are really looking for because apparently they don't know themselves.
Um, so it's, it's, it's again, something you need to navigate, but in the end, when you prepare for an interview, um, it's good to have a set of examples from your past, um, where you have real data, [00:26:00] like what was the starting point? What was the end point? If you speak about whatever, uh, project management, for instance, right?
So that was the scope of the project. I did this and that, and the result was we kind of took all milestones. We, I delivered the project on time with those and those outcomes. You need. data and information you can back up your experience with. If you speak or if you talk just like in general terms, um, it's, it's out of my experience.
It will not kind of be perceived as super good. So, um, It's the same with everything, also with your CV. You need to have the data already there, um, very, where you can really showcase your, um, your successes and your, your, um, skills.
Thank you very much. More questions.[00:27:00]
Any questions. I had a question, but it kind of slipped my mind. Uh, well, I have another one actually, uh, regarding, I never ask about salary or anything like that in the first call, but I don't know if it's me that it's something I don't want to ask in case, uh, or should I really not do that in the first interview?
There is a. Easy answer and a not so easy answer. Um, the not so easy answer is again, usually if you're a good recruiter, you have to ask that question anyway, because you want to know, um, and you want to figure out whether, um, it makes sense to move forward with the person or not. Um, because you have a salary range.
[00:28:00] Um, and, um, if you're out of the salary range. So if you're higher and you don't see a kind of possibility, um, to kind of shift up the role or the level of the role itself. Um, It's a valid reason to end the conversation there and saying, sorry, salary, like your expectations are too high. We cannot accommodate that.
That's a very valid reason to, um, end the process. Um, on the other hand, um, there is a new law coming into place next year. Uh, I don't know the English word, word in German. It's um. That law, um, forces all, all companies to disclose the salary range of the road you're recruiting for. It doesn't have to be in the job ad, but upon asking, they need to give a proper salary range.
That needs to [00:29:00] be based on, on the internal sales or salary ranges. If they have that, well, they need to have it. Um, so it's. always good to ask that question. It's also if you're not being asked about your salary in the initial call, please ask, um, because you don't want to do four rounds of interviews each two hours and then figure out that they pay you 50k less than your salary expectation.
And that happens. So. If they do not do that from the onset, be bold and say, those are my salary expectations for this role. From what I understand is that in your, uh, in the range you have in mind, because you don't wanna kind of do, how can I say, unnecessary interviews. It's a waste of time for everybody.
With, with the, the, the salary law, is that only in Germany or is that in Europe? European law. Ooh. [00:30:00] So it needs to be put into, into international, uh, legislation. Mid to end of next year. It's already there. It has been out there for five years. So it's clear that it's coming Companies take care about it next year, but it's coming.
So there's they have to yeah That's the thing but that that will come and you have the right to uh, know the salary range of the roads Do they need to expose that on the website or only when you apply? No Now that you, but you need to give an answer, an honest database answer on it if being asked. Um, I guess most companies will kind of switch to putting salary ranges on their job ads already.
Um, to, to have some kind of transparency in place. I'm not a huge fan of that. Uh, because of the limits. Your your possibilities [00:31:00] to move candidates around and also to decide whether, um, you want to kind of level up the road and say, um, yeah, that person is so good. Um, we actually kind of create or we use the road and then just go one level higher, which then also comes hand in hand with the higher salary.
Um, but it depends, right? In the end, you just need to discuss something.
Cool, but only next year. Yeah. Then they will not do it because they are too late and then they will get in to start being fined for, for not doing that. Uh, so it will take a while, but yeah, it should start next year.
Next year in January or something like that. That would be good. But no, I guess it's something mid to end of next year. Okay. Yeah. Good. Because it's mid end of 2020.[00:32:00]
Yeah.
More questions. Now it's the chance. Sarah,
do you have any? Yeah, I was thinking when they ask you a question, sometimes we try to elaborate more on our reply to try to introduce more things, like they've asked me about this. Here I can read my experience here and there. Should we try to do that? Or it's better to be short? Concise and just answer the question because also it's your opportunity to show your experience, no?
It's like, I guess it's a balance, but what do you think about this? Balance, uh,
it's, it's also again, a quite, quite thin line you can [00:33:00] walk, right? Because if you overexplain, um, you might be again, seen as condescending or some kind of knowing all, because you just don't answer the question directly, but Kind of elaborate. Uh, what you can do is. Um, really, uh, be precise at the beginning, saying that's the answer to the question, um, and then kind of push, uh, or kind of, how can I say, um, give them the choice saying I have kind of done similar things like that.
Do you want to know more how I would approach it? Um, and. a smart recruiter or smart interviewer would say, yes, please. Um, and if they're not interested in it, well, then it's again, they're bad. So I would kind of give them the choice, um, to, um, to decide whether they want to learn more on your experience or not.[00:34:00]
can or what I would recommend to avoid is really, um, doing a big, a very big storytelling thing on a very simple answer, uh, starting somewhere else where you kind of need to construct the logical way why you did it. Um, because people will tune out. So, whatever you do, uh, make a very crisp first answer saying that is, if you know that is the answer to your question and then give the option to add more insights.
A lot of nuggets. Well, if, if people would stick to that, interviews would be so good. No, it's both sides. That's, that's maybe, maybe, um, before we finish the call, I think it is really both sides. What you, [00:35:00] what you explained when we did the master class on recruitment, data driven recruitment, there's so many things that.
I have seen, I mean, just go back to Ikea where I was recruiting inside of Ikea where we didn't follow this approach in that way, at that time at least. Yevgeny, you have a question? Yes, it's strange, I guess, but, uh, what do you recommend if, um, uh, for example, I apply for the position where I don't have, uh, exact experience, but I feel that I can Can manage to to deal with everything.
Uh, for example, I worked for retail and for real estate but I see Um position, uh chief operation. I don't know manager or Manager in operation and I feel I can Manage the position what what would be your recommendation how I should [00:36:00] present? my skills to You Recruiter or hiring manager. The big obstacle you have is being invited for a conversation in the first place.
Um, because if you believe that you can do the job, um, that does not necessarily mean the recruiter or whoever is screening the interviews has the same opinion. Um, so in that regard, um, you in one way or the other need to make sure that people understand that the knowledge you have, at least in your opinion, applies to their specific problem as well.
So either you do it in your CV. Um, well, there's Do it in your CV with a very short introductionary text saying, having done this and [00:37:00] that, I can apply my knowledge to other fields as well and hope that people speak to you. If they do, um, The good thing is they already know you do not have specific experience in that area, but they understand that you bring a lot of knowledge that can be transferred from your previous jobs to the role they are recruiting for.
That makes life a bit easier. The big obstacle really is Starting the conversation, because that is the main, that, that will be the, the, the main reason for, for kind of not moving forward because people don't see a fit between your skills and what they're looking for.[00:38:00]
Good.
I have a question because usually I'm on the recruiter side. I'm still on the recruiter side and I will always be. Um, so probably what's the most annoying thing apart from not hearing back? Um, you experience. experienced in your interviews, either with the recruiter or with hiring managers or any interview.
So what's the most annoying thing that you really would like to have changed? I can help there.
There's a huge problem with not hearing back, no follow up, no updating, no on what's the state. That's the first one. The second one is usually they don't give a clear timeline either. So that's also a problem. Uh, many times they don't know, uh, very well, the job itself. That's what I, I, [00:39:00] I found they're not that familiar with the technicalities of the job itself.
So they, when I ask questions about the job, they, they will check with the team, but they actually don't have the answers. And, and they ask also general questions, which, uh, Yeah, they're not that specific about the role. And when I have questions about the role, they don't, most of the time, they don't really know that much about it.
So in the end, the HR call is mostly easy to pass, no? Because it seems to me like more general, more on if I'm a cultural fit. So that's fine. That's the feeling I have. Um, but the issues are mainly, yeah, the lack of response, the lack of update. Um, And sometimes I feel like I'm bothering them, no? Like, it really feels a bit like, they pick up the phone, Ah, yeah, okay, they answer, like, quickly, and they, like, they are trying to get rid of [00:40:00] you, kind of.
And it's so obvious, and it's like, okay, I mean, just, maybe you can take a couple of minutes for someone that a week ago was very interesting to you, no? And, when you called. So, it's, it's a bit weird. I haven't had, like, a great HR experience so far, to be honest. Okay. Sorry, I'm working for that easier than I can, I can share as well as I would say, from the position of hiring manager, but I, I, I guess you know what I say, uh, because, uh, it's the best way to, to have a good interview together with a recruiter and I don't know, um, people responsible, uh, it's, uh, preparation when you, uh, talk, uh, hiring manager with this recruiter, uh, talk about the [00:41:00] priorities, talk about their, uh, set of questions even, and At the end of interview, uh, just on the fresh, um, feeling, uh, it's better to have, uh, like feedback session, short one, just share what, what do you think?
What, what is important? What is not? And it worked for me really well. If, if you have this sit up with, uh, with the recruiter, that's, uh, really important for, uh, team work, I would say. That's my, I guess, you know, but, but it is the best solution. Uh, if you, if you have this teamwork together,
so I have a question. Yes. I have a question for Christian, um, from the, from the person who is looking for the ball, [00:42:00] what, how many weeks do you, do you shall think that you are not going through the process? Three weeks, four weeks, six weeks, or after, I don't know, one week, because sometimes if people say you.
So I have this personal case. So now I am based in Berlin. I applied for a role and I spoke with the person in charge and at the end of the conversation, three weeks later, she told me, Hey, we need to discuss with the people in Munich because they have an office here and now the people who take the decision is located over there.
A amazing conversation, nice skills, one, one to the role. But at the end of the day, nothing.
Yeah. Um, Munich. Yeah. Munich is the best place to be anyway. Uh, apart from that, um,[00:43:00]
if I wasn't changed, uh, not a change, if I were in charge of the recruiting process, um, it would not take longer than two weeks per job. individual person going through the process because there is no reason for it to take longer. Um, you do an initial call, you decide on the same day, basically you decide within 15 minutes after the conversation, you decide whether you want to move forward with the candidate or not.
Um, then you schedule, um, The next round interview, be it whatever case study, you name it, you're all, you should have everything prepared, you know, who is going to take the interview, you know, the available times of all interviews, and then you send out the request for, um, the coordinating the time slot, then you do the interview, [00:44:00] um, which should take, like takes one or two days or let's say a few days, two to three days to set it up.
You do the interview immediately after the conversation, you know, whether you want to move forward with the candidate or not. Everybody's saying, Oh, I need to align for the next two weeks. They are lying and they do not remember you at all after two weeks, right? They don't know what you look like. They don't know what you said.
It's a complete nonsensical way of doing it. Right. And then you decide what's, you know, your process, you say, I need to have another conversation with whoever. Um, and basically you can come back the same day or the day after the last interview to coordinate the next or final round, and then depending on availability, it's taking.
two to three days and then you do the final interview and then you take can take a decision it's two weeks you can do it in one week if the candidate is available right um so [00:45:00] all processes that take longer are basically bad planning Um, and they are, they are not getting anything out of those interviews, right?
Because, well, you know it yourself, you do a conversation with Jens, um, and probably with somebody else who is bald, uh, and German, Uh, and then Two days later, somebody asks you who said what, and you do not know, right? You give a list of sentences and you cannot pinpoint, um, something to Jens or the other person, unless there is written, um, I talk about leadership and not management, and then, you know, it's Jens.
Um, but the rest most likely cannot kind of pinpoint to a specific person. Um, so the longer it takes to get the, the feedback on your interview, the more likely it is that the evaluation that is being done [00:46:00] on the actual conversation is flawed. So, um, that's something you don't want to hear, uh, apparently, but unfortunately that's the Yeah, unfortunately, it's more the rule than the exception.
I mean, it was, it was almost flow, it was a win win for, for the company and for me, but okay, I, I applied the platform and after that I got a call from the person in charge, come to the office, bring your CV, physical, I, I went over there and spoke with the people. Okay, we need to speak with Mr. I don't know the name.
She's located in Munich. Um, okay. We're going to say you something. Okay. Six months later, they didn't say nothing. Yeah, forget about them. Honestly, forget about them. It's, it's annoying, but it's, it's, it's a complete waste of time to, uh, start kind of thinking about that because the outcome is completely, uh, I'm sure, right.
It's [00:47:00] bad. I know, I know it's bad and it's so annoying specifically when you are looking for a job and you just, you kind of, Put a lot of effort into it and you don't hear back and the interview experience isn't that good because people are not trained or they don't care. Um, and, and I completely understand that.
I learned a lesson. I learned the lesson after two weeks. If the people don't say nothing, discard, discard. So no, no, no, no, no. We don't need to speak more about that. Two weeks. Okay. Next one. Next one. Next one. That's that's the only way and that is a good way to train our brain that we're going to get a lot of notes and that is part of the game.
Maybe, maybe one last input from my side. Before we close to Christian as well what I have seen. Which [00:48:00] was super annoying when it was for higher position that the people that not the HR recruiter But like the top managers there are doing the interviews They're completely not prepared like they start reading the CV when there's when when the call starts So you know exactly that they haven't done anything, that even they don't know the, the, the, sometimes even not the role, definitely not the CV.
They have not checked anything. And then they're asking random questions by reading the CV, like they're looking like 15 years back. something completely unrelatable to the role. Yes, that's super annoying, especially when it's on like high profile roles.
You don't want, you don't want to be in the same room with me if I figure that out. Uh, no, I can imagine. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. It's, [00:49:00] it's annoying. It's annoying. I completely get that. And I don't know why people Just don't understand. Specifically when you really have the final call with the hiring manager, right?
The person who is going to take the decision. And you would believe that they kind of know that the responsibility is on them. They will take the final hiring decision and say yes or no if, everybody kind of, if everybody said yes before. Um, and then you would think that they have a quite high interest in hiring somebody.
Um, they, they want to hire, right. And they fully understand the skills and the personality and everything. Um, but apparently some, or quite, quite, quite a few actually don't care. Uh, which luckily, will backfire on them because yeah, the turnover rate is quite high in those, uh, in [00:50:00] those teams. Um, it's bad for you again, as the applicant or the person who is starting a new job.
Um, but for the hiring managers, it's quite, um, helpful if you can show them how bad they are at taking a decision.
Last question, last question, Frank, because I need to jump into the next call after this. Sorry. What I saw is the companies, they are looking for, uh, high, uh, high profile persons, um, they find the people, but they don't keep, uh, uh, uh, uh, that's what they don't want to hide the people they are looking for always, but they don't hide.
That's my personal, uh, perception now.
Unfortunately, yes. Unfortunately, there are still companies who think that it's a good sign for the brand. If they have a lot of high profile roles open, even if they don't hire for them. [00:51:00] Um, backfires in the long run as well, because people will learn and people talk, right? All markets are pretty close and I'm pretty small.
We all operate in a bottle. Uh, and if the word spreads that they Do not hire those, um, those roles that are advertising for, um, people will just see as being interested in those companies. So in the end, it's, um, they are kind of sabotaging their own efforts. Um, but some old fashioned people think it's a good idea to show that we are still hiring.
Let's, let's close it here. Right over. So I think we could do this more five hours more, but I have another call, which I need to jump into. Um, you, we are all part of the community. I have Frank, we need to do selfie. I know we are all part of the community. So Christian is in the community as well. If you have questions in, in details, you're of course, [00:52:00] welcome to reach out and let's do quick selfie, smile, right?
Thank you. With that, thank you very much for today. See you next Monday for the next one. It's again, leadership topic next week. See you. See you. Ciao.
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Transcript:
Personal development masterclass. One of the topics that's dear to my heart, because of what I have seen over the last 15 years is that personal development is quite seldom in organizations. It's not really taken, uh, in a proper way, at least in my eyes. So that's why I'm really keen on sharing this today.
So we have two. main perspectives. One or two topics for today. One is personal development talk versus performance evaluation. And then we do a deep dive into how I'm doing personal development talks. And then we do questions in the end. Personal development. So we have one part, which is the personal development talk, and then we have the performance evaluation.
And a lot of organizations, focus on performance evaluation. And the difference between those two is that the performance evaluation, the main part they are focusing on, or the main source of that is the company. So the company is on the top. And from there, it goes into, the individuals and the different tasks that need to be done to accomplish what's happening in the company, what is required to do to be done in the company.
And the individual that is doing the task is the last point. And then inside of the performance evaluation, you're looking backward. So you look, how did this person perform in the past? The development talk is the opposite. So the most important part of the. Development talk is the future. Where does the person want to be in the future?
And it has nothing to do with the outcome of the company or where the company wants to be. The goal of this is, and why, why do this personal development talk? I believe that if we are developing people in organizations beyond what the organization needs, they will contribute more to the company. They will contribute better.
So the goal of what I'm doing with development talks is finding out what the people desire and going deeper into that. And we will have a look at that in the next couple of slides. And then look, what are the different tasks of the organizations that fit the person and what the person wants to be. And then you marry these two things.
And then it works as well from a performance evaluation perspective. So that's my perspective on development talk and performance evaluation. Let's go into personal development talk a couple of, I think it's almost two years ago or something. I've developed this in as, as a worksheet. So if anyone is interested in getting this worksheet as a PDF.
Happy to share that. So, the starting point of a development talk is really a setup of the atmosphere and the place. So you are going to do a development talk with another person. So you are the manager and the, the other person is like reporting to you and then you're meeting up. So what you need to make sure of is that you have, an appropriate place.
The best case is always doing this outside of the office environment in a. In a place where people feel well, the atmosphere is super important. The time of the day is important, not doing it on Friday afternoon, for example, when people want to go on the weekend, of course, you need to be aware of your relationship with the other person, depending on how deep your relationship is.
You of course have then a perspective on how deep you can go. And how much that is. And then what is important as well is that you put the note-taking responsibility to the person that is inside the room or is working with you. So me as a leader, I always give the note taking responsibility for the other person because then you see what they understand and what they get out of that.
And then I always do as well. A version in front of us so that people understand this. So printing out this worksheet as an example, if you do that in a physical space, then you print it out and then you go into the development talk. And the starting point of the development talk goes really wide.
Looking into what's the personal vision like. I always ask these as open questions without showing them the worksheet in the beginning. Who do you want to be? And that's very, very, very wide. Like, who do you want to be? What does it mean? Some people who have never had a conversation like this, struggle with this.
So they start with, yeah, I want to be a manager. I want to be something specific. So they go very, very, very specific and they don't really look into the future. So the first round of this, I just, Help them to find out who they want to be and they write down, they write down a manager. I want to be a good father.
I want to be whatever they come up with. And then I go to the next question and I show them the next question, not before. So why do you want to be that person? So then they're reflecting on the answers they have given and then they go back and refine who they want to go to be. And that's an interesting process because what.
You as the manager that is holding this development talk are doing, you're literally shutting up and just asking open questions to tell me more. How, how does that feel? What does that look like? What would that look like in the future? So you only ask open ended question when that gets the person talking and reflecting.
So if you're saying this, what does it mean? So, and then they're explaining, explaining, and they go in a loop between who am I going to be? And why do I want to be that person? So until they have clarity, and the first loop is always. The starting point where they don't know what's going to come, then who am I going to be?
They come up with high-level topics and then they go, Why do I want to be that person? Then they go back to Who am I going to be? And then they go deeper. And I always then give them a perspective. Okay, think about five years, 10 years from now, who do you want to be? And then they go more particular in all of these things.
And then we go, we don't close this, we keep it, we put it aside. And then we go to the next sheet, which is a personal development map. So I want them again to reflect on certain questions. And it doesn't matter in the order, I just take them clockwise right now. But it's really going and answering the specific questions.
What do I want to learn? So you're asking this, the person that is in front of you. So what do you want to learn to be that person? So linking it back to that person of the future. And then you're asking, what do you want to improve? And then they come up with things. So it's, it's like writing down the, all the different topics and then what do I want to leave behind?
And then they come back with topics that they want to leave behind. Another question is what excites you? Yeah. And then going deeper into this, who is important to them? And then what is important to them? And when you have done this circle, you go around it and they were deeper in this topic.
What quite often happens then if you ask them, so how, if we go back to the other one, is that still the same thing you want to be? Because they have now clarified what they want to be. and answer the question, they go back to this one and then clarify, no, no, no, I want to be this, I want to be this. What I always ask them, in this part is to paint a picture.
So when, when we have finished with this one, I go back to this one. And say, from a personal vision perspective, imagine a picture and describe the picture that you see on the wall. And then they describe to me who they want to be and who they are going to strive to be inside of a picture and explain everything that is around them.
I've had, for example, a person that told me where they are going to live, what, how it feels, um, in this picture, where the kids in this picture, where the wife or husband and, and going really into details and then linking this to. A job perspective as well, because in the end, we are at least this part is in a job environment.
So they are linking that to the job environment of who they're going to be working with as well. So these two are super powerful. And then you go into the next step, which is a goal perspective. So it starts with the staircase. So in the top right corner, we have what is the goal. And the starting point is really, um, defining that goal.
So if you want to be this person in five years, what is the goal for the next year for you to be very specific? And of course, you can do smart goal setting and all of that, but it's in the end, What does feel right for that person? What is the development goal they want to reach in one year from now?
And then they formulate that goal. And then you go to the bottom of this page where you look into where do you stand today on a scale from one to 10. So they're rating themselves on how close are they to that goal. If they're close, then they're at 10 or 9. If they're far away, then they're at 1. And what always happens is they're somewhere in between, obviously.
So when they have rated that, then you look into what are the things that get you closer to that goal, meaning moving your scale from 5 to 10. And that's what they are writing down above the stairs. So, above the stairs are the things that are getting them closer to their goal. And then they're defining this in bullet points and formulating that out.
And [you do that obviously all in a conversation. You ask the person who is doing the development talk, you are asking them questions to get them moving. You're asking them clarifying questions about the topics that are put, into the sheet. And then the next part is, what are the things that getting you further away from that goal?
So downstairs, if you think at it from a staircase perspective, and then they're writing these things down and then they have a clear picture of a goal staircase where they, they know they want, where they want to be linking that to the vision that's five years from now and the goal picture, and then they rate themselves.
And have then clear understanding of that are the things I need to do to get to my goal and that are the things I should not be doing. And then the last step of the development talk is getting specific. So now we zoom into one year and actionable goals that help them or tasks that get them towards the one-year perspective.
So what are the things they're going to do? When are they going to do this? What do they need to make happen to be able to do this? What are the things they need help with and how I'm, how they going to measure them? So it's a very, very simple setup where they write down literally the different steps that help them to get there.
And they're putting measurable goals towards the goal. And this is roughly. I would say one and a half hours, even if we go through this right now in a theoretical setting in, let's say 15 minutes in a real conversation, in a coaching style, where you ask the manager or coach the other person to find out what they are desiring and where they want to be.
It takes roughly one and a half hours if you do that well, sometimes it's faster depending on the relationship as well. The fascinating thing with this is it has zero to do with the company you work in and one hundred percent to do with who they want to be. And as well as zero to do with you as their manager, if you're their manager, like your perspective, your opinion on anything of that.
Um, just to give you a couple of examples, I've had people that told me that they want to be. building their own company in the next five years and they worked in the company and I was their manager they told me because they trusted me that they wanted to build their own company and we built a plan for how they were going to build their own company and I've had situations where people told me that they want to get married in the next five years and then we built a plan to get them towards marriage getting married and looked into how that does that work with the career perspective same with kids and all the other things so this is a development tool you That I use with everyone that is working with me over time because I believe that as further we as managers and organizations help people to develop as better it is.