Data-Driven Recruitment
Data-driven recruitment transforms hiring by reducing reliance on gut feeling and enhancing decision-making with metrics like conversion rates. This structured approach saves time and money, ensuring better hires with a clear framework for candidate evaluation and career development.
Data-Driven Recruitment – A Smarter Approach to Hiring
In today’s competitive job market, recruiting the right talent requires more than intuition. Data-driven recruitment offers a structured, efficient approach to hiring that minimizes errors and optimizes the process through actionable insights.
The Role of Data in Recruitment
Recruitment is a complex funnel with multiple stages, from application to hiring. By collecting and analyzing data at each stage, recruiters can identify bottlenecks and inefficiencies. For example, in one real-life case, out of 2,866 applicants, only seven were hired, revealing a major flaw in the process.
The key takeaway? Without data, recruitment becomes guesswork. Data helps ensure that recruiters make informed decisions rather than relying on gut feelings, which can lead to costly mistakes.
Time is Money: Understanding the Cost of Recruitment
One of the most eye-opening aspects of data-driven recruitment is understanding the real cost of the hiring process in terms of time. For every hire, recruiters can spend upwards of 116 hours—equivalent to two weeks of work for one person—just in interviews. When you calculate the number of hours spent on tasks like get-to-know calls, first-round interviews, and final rounds, the inefficiency becomes clear.
By using data to streamline this process, companies can cut down on unnecessary steps and focus on higher-quality interactions.
Improving the Candidate Experience
A well-structured recruiting framework also enhances the candidate experience. By clearly defining the expectations for the first six to twelve months, candidates can understand what success looks like in the role. This not only helps set them up for success but also ensures the hiring team knows exactly what skills and attributes to look for.
Metrics Matter: The Power of Conversion Rates
Conversion rates are one of the most critical metrics in a data-driven approach. They show the quality of candidates moving through each stage of the funnel, helping recruiters assess whether they are on track to fill a role. If conversion rates are low, it may indicate a problem with how candidates are sourced or evaluated.
Structured Interviews Lead to Better Hires
A structured interview process is essential for data-driven recruitment. Recruiters and hiring managers must ask the same questions, use the same case studies, and measure candidates against the same criteria. This consistency allows for objective comparison and ensures that decisions are based on data, not personal bias.
Conclusion
Data-driven recruitment transforms hiring from a time-consuming, inefficient process into a streamlined, results-oriented system. By focusing on metrics like conversion rates and using a structured framework, companies can hire better, faster, and at a lower cost.
Highlights:
00:00 Introduction to Data-Driven Recruiting
00:49 The Importance of a Holistic Approach
01:34 Leveraging Data in Recruiting
03:26 Analyzing Real-Life Data
05:49 Time and Cost Efficiency in Recruiting
11:02 Building a Robust Recruiting Framework
17:38 The Role of Communication and Training
24:02 Key Metrics and KPIs
38:10 Final Thoughts and Q&A
42:33 Understanding the Hiring Manager's Needs
43:46 Effective Interview Techniques
45:32 Common Pitfalls in Recruitment
48:09 Attracting the Right Talent
49:04 The Importance of Authentic Employer Branding
53:15 Evaluating CVs and Candidate Fit
01:08:14 Challenges in Onboarding and Retention
01:15:56 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans
Transcript:
[00:00:00] You can start, you can start good. So yeah, today I will speak about data driven recruiting, um, which basically is not rocket science. Um, as some of you might know, but.
On the other hand, it's also not easy, so finding the right people sounds easy, but it is not. And, um, I heard a person calling it or comparing it to craftsmanship, and I guess that pretty much nails it. You really need to know what to do, you need to, um, really think about everything that might come along the way.
And that's what I will speak about today, at least a bit before really speaking about recruiting. Um, I want to highlight one specific thing or topic, um, and that is recruiting is not a standalone [00:01:00] function. People. usually think it is, um, because it's always kind of spoken about separately, but in the end, without all disciplines and the people in culture space, recruiting can be done, but it doesn't work.
Um, so you don't find the right people. You do not pay the right salaries. You cannot keep people right. So you really need to take a look at everything, um, to be able to recruit. successfully. Well, today it's just recruiting specifically a bit more into recruiting strategy or how, um, can I leverage data, um, to be a better recruiter or to set up a better recruiting process and framework.
So I like using quotes. I'm an ecologist, so I like Using old [00:02:00] quotes, right? And here we have, um, one from Charles Babbage. He was living or he lived in the 18th century. And, well, this quote quite resonates a lot. Um, errors using inadequate data are much less than those using no data at all. Which sounds a bit weird, um, but if you take a look at it, it actually makes really sense, as.
The more data you collect, um, the more likely you are to not make the same mistakes over and over again. And trust me in a way when I'm saying that gut feeling is not, um, the right advisor when it comes to hiring decisions. It can have a small influence on, on your hiring decision, but overall you really should use.
a data [00:03:00] backed, uh, hiring decision that uses mainly objective evaluation criteria, which is also super important to eliminate all biases, unconscious and conscious as much as possible. Um, but probably that's something we can speak about at the very end. So
Let's look into data a bit, right? And what you see here, um, is actual real life data from one of my, um, previous full time gigs. And what I'm curious now is, What do you think about that? We see a funnel, we see, um, conversion rates and how candidates pass through the recruiting funnel, uh, from application to, to hires.
So basically if you as non recruiters see it, [00:04:00] what do you think? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it, is it okay ish? So what's your, what's your impression on that? It's surprising. Seriously, from 2866 and we hired seven, you know, so it's surprising and it's very organized from my perspective and, um, like kind of a systematic way.
So, wow. How many jobs were there? Was it seven jobs in total? No, it's not seven jobs in total. It's more jobs. Um, it's the overall funnel view for, um, all open roles over the period of what is it? Two to three months. So it's a very generic overview, but still, um, it does the trick in a, in [00:05:00] a few minutes, I would say.
Any other ideas on that? It's quite interesting that out of seven, uh, 12 offers, you only have seven hires because I was like, I would imagine that 12 offers is 12 people in the later stage. That's, that's super perfect world data. In the end, you cannot have 100 percent conversion rates because sometime one will decline for whatever reason.
Um, but in general, that's one few that, that for sure makes, uh, makes a lot of sense. So now kind of take one step. back and think about time. How much time do you need to interview all of those people? And I'm not speaking about the application review [00:06:00] because that's also taking some time, but if we do that, um, we will go on for hours today.
So if you have in mind that the normal get to know call being done by the recruiter usually takes roughly 30 minutes. Um, first round interview. Um, usually is one and a half hours, um, and also there are most likely two persons involved that spent the full one and a half hours in there. And then final round, depending on the process, um, make it easy to think about one hour and probably also more people involved.
Um, then you get a better understanding of, um, what I'm speaking here. If we just take a look at get to know call first round and final round, um, we are speaking about 288 hours, um, of [00:07:00] get to know calls. We speak about 468 hours for first round and 58 hours for final round, um, which is a lot. Doing the math.
It's taking you 116 hours per hire. That is basically two weeks, um, of the work life of one person. Um, and then if you calculate all the costs in, if you think about Yeah, the, the time you could use for other work, um, that funnel is actually completely faulty. It doesn't work right. Um, you hire people, but the cost, um, only in, in time spent in interviews.
is just way too much. And that's one of [00:08:00] the things that you need to have. If you speak about data driven recruiting, it's one part. Um, it's also the basic part that, um, will bring you to Better conversion rates. Um, because it doesn't make sense to speak in absolute numbers. It makes sense to speak in, um, primarily conversion rates and then in absolute numbers.
So, um, from a, sheer numbers perspective, um, it would make sense to have at least 50 percent of people in first round pass this interview stage and more than 70 percent of the candidates passing the final round stage. Offer stage, you sometimes just cannot control, but everything above [00:09:00] 85 percent actually is pretty good.
Um, that. Also means, um, as a consequence, you always need to have at least two people in office, but it's right because one just doesn't do the trick. And then, um, you can do your math backwards. How many people do I need in final round? How many people do I need in first round and how many people do I then need in the get to know call?
Um, but that's basically just, just a numbers game. You also need to keep in mind that. The higher the conversion rates, the higher the quality of the candidate. So, um, you need to train your recruiters. You also need to train your hiring managers in finding out who the best possible fit of, or for the role, um, is and what you need to do to find that out.
And, um, [00:10:00] that is. the basis of everything you basically should do when it comes to a data driven recruiting process. You need to have a basic understanding of conversion rates, of the funnel, but also what it, what it takes to train your people to fill that funnel with life. And honestly, you can save so much time.
Uh, if, if you know how to interview, which questions to ask, um, That for instance, the recruiter who is in charge of the get to know call can improve candidate experience considerably, can take part in first round interviews to have a third or fourth pair of eyes on the candidates interviewing to really figure out whether the person fits or not.
And then you can break down to all different aspects of the recruiting funnel. [00:11:00] So. If you translate this into a, for me, let's call it perfect recruiting framework. It looks like that. Um, the first piece wrote creation, um, a bit. Out of, um, out of scope today, it has a lot to do with, um, with workforce planning, really planning ahead, six months, 12 months, and making sure that you know when to start recruiting, but overall, um, you should have a hiring plan that you can recruit against as a recruiting organization.
And then actually, you really have the most important topic of the complete recruiting process. And that's not even speaking to candidates, right? It's the key here. You really need to fully understand the need of the role? What skills do we need? What kind [00:12:00] of personality do we need? What should the person be like we are recruiting for?
Um, is it a replacement? Is it a new role? Um, do we look for Uh, another mini me, uh, which should be avoided anyway. Are we looking for a diverse candidate, not only in terms of gender, but probably also, um, in, in, in the way of thinking, uh, and so on? You have to decide. on the complete recruiting process, who is taking over which interview, what's the responsibility of the interview, which questions to ask, do we have a case study, if yes, how should the case study look like, and so on.
To really have everything completely mapped out before you start recruiting for the role. Because if you don't do that, um, You have to iterate, and iteration on recruiting takes time, [00:13:00] um, it's super annoying, uh, people get frustrated, not only the recruiter, but everybody involved, um, and so on and so on. So, this really sets the pace for, um, your recruiting project, and it also sets The way whether you will be successful or not, and also, but that's one of my favorite topics here as well.
If you set up the kickoff meeting properly, if you ask the right questions internally, you also have a very good way of, um, measuring the quality of higher ed. In the long run, because, um, I very strongly believe that recruiting should not be focused on the tasks that the person has to do and the skills that person needs to bring, but how success is [00:14:00] measured.
over the first six to 12 months. What are the goals? What are the objectives of the new hire? What, um, are we looking for, uh, in, um, in the new colleague that kind of enables them to really fulfill those goals? Um, and that is, makes the candidate experience much better because the candidate knows if I want to be successful, I need to achieve this, this and that over the first six to nine months.
The hiring manager, the new team lead knows I have a good hire if the candidate, um, is able to meet the goals we are, um, we are recruiting for. And during the interview, You can, um, evaluate the candidate against those goals, and then you can, um, quite objectively evaluate whether the person has, um, the skillset and that includes technical skills plus [00:15:00] personality to really, um, yeah, be successful when we are hiring.
And then the next steps are Yeah, pretty, pretty standard, right? You have your get to know calls, you have your first round interviews, you have final round interviews, um, and there you really need to have a very structured process. You need to ask the same type of questions to all candidates, you need to have the same case study, you need to measure against the same framework, the same internal framework, and that brings me to Um, to the start of this, um, short masterclass, um, you need to have a complete career development framework in place to be able to evaluate the new people against that.
You need to be able to put them into the right level. You need to be able to, um, evaluate whether they bring the level of. responsibility with them, the level of technical skills [00:16:00] with them. If you don't have that, it's guesswork and you cannot make sure that you hire the right person. And then, um, yeah, just move on, collect as many data points as you have and really make sure that everybody fills in their evaluation forms, scorecards, um, thoroughly.
that you really have a lot of information you can base your decision on in the very end. And if everything works fine, and if you have a good process in place, if you ask the right question, you can offer a candidate, um, and you can start the onboarding phase, which is Super important as well, because if you do not keep contact with your new hires and you have a longer notice period, um, the chances are high that people are not super connected to you as an employer.
Um, if you just send out the first email, the first [00:17:00] touch point two days before the official start date, but that's also some kind of different story. And that's, so to say, underlying process framework. Um, it should be super easy, but it also brings a lot of responsibilities and a lot of topics that, um, people really need to have in mind when, um, working, um, database and when having a structured recruiting framework, um, in place.
So you actually really need to train and teach your hiring managers, your interviewers, uh, in interviewing techniques in unconscious bias. Um, they need to be aware that, um, whatever we do needs to be focused on the candidate and not on internal processes or [00:18:00] internal well being. So whatever we do needs to be done for, for the candidate.
Um, and, um, everybody needs to be fully aware on the TA process. What does our recruiting process look like and what is required? Um, it also needs a lot of communication and here not top down, uh, but really communication on high level between the recruiters and the hiring managers and also the interviewers.
Um, you need to have the full understanding of the requirements, the job markets, the needs, the wishes, um, and also super important. specifically from a recruiter perspective, that you communicate when the search is not going so well. Um, because then [00:19:00] you need to realign, you need to find new ways of, of recruiting people.
You need to find new channels, new, um, of, of attracting people. And sometimes you also need to take a look on, uh, on your requirements. Are they still correct? Because apparently the market doesn't deliver people that we are looking for. Right. Um, and if you're on a very. High level of communication. Um, you eliminate frustration on both sides.
Usually it's called the black hole effect, right? Um, you put something into the recruiting team and you don't know what's happening. And maybe you have a candidate, but you can avoid it with very clear communication. Again, what you also need is a. clearly mapped out recruiting process. You need to have clearly assigned roles and responsibilities in the hiring team so [00:20:00] that everybody taking part in the interviews knows what to do, knows which questions to ask, and also what to look for in the candidates.
If you do it like that, you have a very clear picture on, um, the fit of the candidate, of the future colleague, uh, and can take a better hiring decision. And then also one of my personal favorites, um, you need one owner of the process, not several. Um, one person is responsible that the process is being followed and that everything is running smoothly.
And honestly, for me, that's the recruiter who is in charge of that role and nobody else. And then the rest is pretty, pretty standard. I would say you need different recruiting channels because you cannot find the same [00:21:00] profiles in, uh, in all of the channels. Um, you need to, Um, do really structured talent sourcing.
So looking for people all over the globe, um, you need to have, um, reasonably well working, uh, employer branding and specific campaigns. If you need it, um, referral programs, you name it, it's a lot, right? Um, but Whatever or which channels you use needs to be tailor made to the specific role you're recruiting for, because not all channels perform, um, as well for the same or for different roles, so it needs to be really understood, and for that, you need, um, data again.
You need historical data. Usually, you have hired for a role several times before, um, and you need to have the performance of that [00:22:00] search. stored, saved somewhere. You need to have it structured so that you can say, um, I know that the best candidates are from Bulgaria. Um, there is two universities and a lot of startups that use that technology.
Um, they are mobile. They want to relocate probably to, to another country. Um, you know, salaries, you know, how long it will take to recruit for that role. You know how long it will take to bring those people to Germany, for instance, if that's a requirement on and you have everything in place so you can create a recruiting strategy that is super focused.
on the needs you have. Uh, and if you have the data in the background, you can speed up the recruiting process considerably. I'm not speaking about a talent pool. Uh, that's a different story. [00:23:00] And, uh, From a GDPR perspective, um, it's not so easy to maintain that anymore. Um, but at least you can have all the other data, uh, in an, uh, anonymized way that enables you, um, to act upon that.
And then, um, what you also need, I guess that's also quite, um, apparent. Hopefully you need a very highly trained recruiting team that is Specialized on specific areas of your business, be it engineering, product management, marketing, you name it, so that they can support the hiring manager to the best of their capabilities and really take away a lot of workload from the department, from the hiring manager into the recruiting team and just present candidates that are a really good fit.[00:24:00]
Then also important for a data driven approach, which metrics, which KPIs do you need to track? And again, for me, as already mentioned, one of the most important metric you have to take a look at. are the conversion rates because they tell you the quality of the candidates. They tell you whether you're able to fill the role with the amount of candidates you have.
And, um, you can break those conversion rates down very easily by role, by channel, by department, seniority, you name it, right? Um, and, and they really enable you to, um, improve the complete Not the process itself, but the content of the process, um, because for instance, if you have, um, 20 candidates that make it from [00:25:00] the get to know call towards, um, the first round interview and out of those 20, only five make it to the next round, you have a huge, um, quality problem.
In your initial call. So you need to eliminate that and ask, What am I doing wrong? Don't I ask the right questions, right? And then you can backtrack and make sure that the next wave of interviews is more precise or that you actually do not need to speak. Speak to certain people where a specific thing is missing in a cv, and that's what you need to do.
And for that, you need to track everything that, that you're doing in the long run. Um, for sure there are also, um, absolute numbers important, um, but not the number of hire itself because that's not telling, um, it's just telling you, I hired 20 people in the past 15. Or in the [00:26:00] past five months, right? It's not telling you, am I hiring against the hiring plan?
Because I have a plan. I need to hire two engineers in July, eight engineers in August. Um, and you need to track that. Um, am I in line with our, Um, planning because the planning should be based on the company's strategy. Um, and the milestone you have as a company, um, and that you need to achieve, um, to ship product or to be successful, right?
So. That is very, very important as well. And yes, you can, and it should take a look at time to offer and time to hire again with different breakdowns. Um, you need to track in a way, um, the ratio between offers and signed contracts, that's again, moving into conversion rates, um, And, um, also important, you need to look into, um, your sourcing [00:27:00] activities.
How many people respond back? How many people are interested? How many people make it to, um, the first round? How many people I offer from my, my direct search activities? And you can, um, Um, and extend that to diversity aspect. If you really say, I am super short of diversity in the leadership team, you need to have specific goals you need to achieve or you want to achieve, you can measure against that and so on.
Um, but you don't need to really look into our numbers on metrics, like, um, click through rate, um, and, and how many. views you have on your job ads because those numbers don't tell you anything at all. They just tell you, Oh, I have 5, 000 people looking at our ads. And if nobody, um, is, uh, is applying, well, then you can change, but it's not really telling.
Um, those are the, sorry. [00:28:00] Hi, can I ask you something, um, uh, related to, to this and to what you previously said at the beginning, um, should we consider, um, um, a KPI, a metric, uh, let's say the application number because 3, 840 or, uh, I don't remember exactly the number. It's quite huge. And if, uh, such a number, uh, we have, uh, uh, such a number of a applicants, then, uh, it must tell you something about your, I don't know, employer branding maybe.
So Okay. No, sorry. Okay. Yeah. Uh, continue. Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt. Okay, uh, so that was a question if we should consider maybe the number of applications, um, uh, a metric and then of course [00:29:00] what we filter, uh, from out of, of that. But should that be also, uh, and how, how was it done actually? If that was, I don't know, uh, not, uh, it, if that comes from, um, real example, uh, a practice, practice, From 3, 800 to 380.
How was that done? Sorry. That's the non magic thing, right? Um, you have a person taking a look at CDs. You can automate some bits and pieces. For instance, if Um, you need to relocate a person to let's say Germany and that person, um, does not have a work permit for Germany and you don't want to, um, spend money on, uh, on providing visa and stuff.
Then you could create a knockout question in the, uh, in the application form saying, are you allowed to [00:30:00] legally allowed to work in Germany? And if the answer is no, you can automate or you can trigger. Um, a rejection email, um, a very nice one, but that's, that's not really, that's not really helpful in the end.
Um, you need to have a person taking a look at all of those, um, applications and deciding based on what. they know from the kickoff meeting, does it make sense to speak to that person or not? That's down to, um, also a bit of experience, but also what exactly am I looking for and who am I looking for? Um, and right now to, to be very honest, The number of applications is no sign of a good or a bad, um, employer brand, um, because people just apply to everything, um, they, they find [00:31:00] suitable and some of them actually also, um, use, uh, some AI tools to kind of automate those application processes, which is kind of.
flooding your, your, uh, your inbox, but there is no way to avoid that. At least not now. And there is no tool that would help you, um, get rid of those, um, AI applications, at least not, not really. Um, so the numbers themselves. Like specifically at top of funnel, when we speak about applications, the numbers are nice, right?
But they don't tell you anything. They don't tell you about the quality and even saying, um, I take a look at the amount of people I. Kind of rejected. That's also not helpful. Um, because you do not learn anything from it. [00:32:00] Apart from probably I need to, um, slightly revert my job ad. But that's something you can barely measure.
Um, at least not, um, in a way that would make, uh, or would enable you to take some decisions on, um, on that specific thing. So, um, I strongly believe in low numbers. So the lower the number of candidates, in the funnel, um, the more likely it is that you find the right people. Um, and sometimes you don't have applications at all because it's a niche role.
There are not many people around that are actively looking for a job. Um, so you need to find, um, other channels, other way of attracting people anyway, could be referral, could be, um, [00:33:00] could be, um, direct search. Um, but in the end, um, If you have a very good working, um, recruiting framework in place and well trained interviewers, recruiters, hiring managers, and you don't need to speak to more than 10 to 20 people for filling a role, at least not in the get to know call, and then it will narrow down accordingly.
Did that answer your question? Yes. And I have another one, maybe, I don't know, maybe you will talk about it or, but from a sorcerer, from a sorcerer's point of view, is the number of candidates found by the sorcerer could be taken into consideration? No, or no. It's the same as, as with the applications.
Important is that you find the right people. [00:34:00] And sometimes you only find 10 or hydroids. back then when I was still in sourcing, um, I actually only found seven people for that specific role. Um, and that was already a lot, and I was super happy. Um, so it's again, more on the conversion rates. How do you approach those folks?
Um, how many really kind of come back to you when you reach out to them and How many of them are interested in moving forward? Those are the important metrics because, um, the numbers game, um, does not really help you. It just shows some kind of activity, but it's an activity that's not necessarily good.
Um, so I would never focus on high numbers on top of funnel. I would always focus on how many people make it. at least to the first round [00:35:00] interview, because then, um, I see quality. And if I want to do it super perfect, I'll take a look at how many people out of those from first round make it to final round.
Because then I know I have a high quality process in place and I found the right people at the beginning. But isn't it more a question of the quality of the candidates, not the performance of the my team of a member of my team? How do I get to know if it's a success because of the quality of the candidate and not because of the work of my team?
It depends. Honestly, um, if you have sourcing in place, if you have a referral program in place, um, the quality of the candidates that come in, is considerably higher than the quality of the candidates that apply. Um, that's, [00:36:00] I don't have the, the, the slide here, um, but I also have. Yeah, I agree. I agree with you.
Yeah, I agree. On the other hand, um, it's also, Um, part of the recruiting success, right? If, um, the recruiter is able to sift through whatever parole 100, 200, um, CVs and only move forward with the 10, um, that, um, or have the highest likelihood to move it to office stage. That should always be the approach in everything you do.
Um, the skills that I see, um, that, uh, what I am kind of being presented through the CV or whatever means you have, um, how likely will it be that this candidate will make it through, through the whole process to office stage? And that can be trained. Um, that can be, um, can be taught to people. Um, but [00:37:00] for that, you need to be highly specialized in the area you are recruiting in or the people you are recruiting for.
So that's, it requires some kind of effort and a bit of time, but the outcome is quite amazing if you, um, take down, if you take that route.
Good. Any other questions? Oh, thank you. Good. Um, and then also candidate experience, hiring, hiring manager satisfaction is something you need to measure, um, to improve on the process itself. Um, candidate experience should be measured, um, through your applicant tracking system, your tool, um, and it should be done anonymous.
And the same basically is true for the hiring manager satisfaction survey. You need to, um, collect. input on the process, on, uh, on the [00:38:00] interviews, on how everything is structured, um, to be able, um, to improve everything that you are doing. Um, and that actually already leads me to, to the end, uh, of the planned masterclass today.
Um, the process I, or the framework I showed is super easy. does not have a lot of exceptions. It can be applied to all hiring processes, hiring for a junior, as well as hiring for senior leadership or C level. Um, so simplicity does not contradict a thorough evaluation of the candidates skills and, um, and fit for the role.
So the easier the framework is, the more time you have to really look into, um, that a candidate fit. And then, and that's quite [00:39:00] important for international companies. Um, if you do not have that simple and also unified, um, TA framework in place, um, that has the same stages for all recruiting projects, um, you do not get meaningful data out of your recruiting and out of the historical data.
Um, because For instance, when I was starting at a company, they were alive in seven countries. Each country had, um, their own recruiting process, but they were recruiting for the same roles. So we did not know why. person, candidate A in country A was hired and the same profile was not hired in a different country.
Um, and we could not compare anything. So, you need to have the same approach for all of your recruiting projects, because then, um, you can really [00:40:00] The right fit and you can also, you also have comparable hires. So whenever you hire a specific engineer, for instance, in the U S, um, and that person for a reason wants to relocate to the Netherlands and there is that role open, you don't need to evaluate the guy again, because you know, we have.
done a proper recruiting process. We know the person can fulfill our requirements and the responsibilities for that role. So it needs to be rolled out the same on a global level. And that leads me to the end. Um, there are some questions that were asked on, uh, on school. Um, so probably we also can now. I can stop sharing and we just go through them, or we go through them here, what's your [00:41:00] favorite approach?
Let's go through them. Let's go through them. We maybe can take the screen off and then people can see you better.
Yeah, so basically we have three sets of questions, um, one of them that's also the biggest one is what questions do you ask when interview candidates, um, which questions give you the most valuable information, um, to, to look into cultural fit. That is a tricky question, I have to say, um, because out of experience there is.
No such question, at least not for me. Um, if you really want to find out the fit of the candidate, [00:42:00] um, again, you need to start at the kickoff meeting. You need to fully define, um, who and what you are looking for. And based on that profile, um, you can decide on. the questions on the case study on everything.
And there, when we speak about cultural fit, I actually do not really like that phrase because what is a cultural fit? Is it a fit to the company? Is it a fit to the team? Is it a fit to the hiring manager? Because those are the different levels. And sometimes you have hiring managers, uh, or. I call them managers, just for you Jens, um, who are looking for minimis, um, who are looking for the same type of person, same type of personality to not run into discussions or being doubted in their decision making, right?
[00:43:00] Um, and that's again, something you need to check. at the very beginning. You need to figure out, am I looking for the missing link in my team? And the missing link could be someone who is challenging everything in a nice way and in a professional way. It could also be somebody who is quiet and just doing work because I already, I already have three people challenging everything.
So I don't want to have a fourth person here. Um, and you need to fully. Align on all of those aspects and then you can set up the recruiting process that are the case study the questions accordingly. And you can also decide who is doing what in the interview. My advice in general is, um, Never do an interview alone, always be at least two persons, so one person can ask and interact with the candidate, the [00:44:00] other person can perceive and note down how the people react, are they The type of person we are looking for, and then you switch during the interview, um, according to your field of expertise.
Um, and that needs to be trained. You need to know how to do it. Um, but it can be trained. There are more than enough trainings around, um, to really teach people how to do a proper interview and how to ask proper questions. Um, There is no good or bad question apart from you only ask closed questions throughout the whole interview process where you get a yes and a no all of the time.
Then you can save the time and go whatever, swimming, skiing. Um, but if you have a good way of, of, um, exchanging open questions with closed questions, you really find out a lot of stuff. And you also don't need to focus on everything you want to know. [00:45:00] Focus on two topics. And with the two topics, if you know how to deep dive, uh, in an interview will fill one and a half hour very, very easy.
Um, but you learn much more from those two topics, um, in comparison to having a list of 25 questions that you just tick off. You just scrap the surface, but you do not go deep. So, um, the answer is maybe. Um,
What, what, what I learned from you today, which is quite funny because I have worked in some of the biggest companies in the world and it's not existing. Like what you explained today is not existing throughout the organization on local global level. Like I have seen many, many organizations where. I'm a hundred percent convinced that's not existing.
Yeah. I second that. I have no idea. And as well as a [00:46:00] candidate, what I have seen is that there are no standardized questions. Like they come up with something on the fly and you feel it even that they have zero idea of what they want to ask you. And then they wonder why the people don't fit or why they don't perform.
And then they also ask themselves, Oh, I have to fire that candidate. Um, because. He or she is just not good at what I'm expecting, but they did not ask the right questions. That's also, I need documentation throughout the whole interview. I need a proper scorecard, I need to have a rating system in place, and if I have to let If I have to fire a person on probationary period, I need to know why.
And the reason is, the person can't code. So, folks, we had an interview, didn't you check coding? Well, I asked whether he can. Nice. Um, so, yeah, but if you don't have that documented, you will never find a way to improve. [00:47:00] kind of come or be able to dig down to the core reasons of why you mishired. And well, that's, that's, I guess, a story everybody knows.
The higher the turnover, the higher, um, the Overall turnover is becoming because people are getting insecure. Um, sometimes you keep people that are not performing for whatever reason, and then the already existing teams as well. If that person stays, I have to leave. So. It's in the end, it's, it's, it's a game that you can only lose, to be very honest, because you need to be super structured, um, but you can focus on losing less and less, uh, in comparison to not having that data driven and structured approach.
We are coming to the end. Um, I actually want [00:48:00] to answer the next question or look into the next question because that one is super interesting. How can I attract the right people easily for my team? Um, that's, that's pretty good. And you need to start at the very beginning. Um, because finding them, um, is the easiest part.
You can top, uh, you can direct, uh, you can ask for referrals. So that part actually is Quite easy. The thing before is the tough piece. Um, and, and here I see a lot of, let's call it misunderstandings because companies think, ah, let's do an employer branding, uh, campaign focusing on how good we are, what we can offer, what we do, whatever.
Um, but if the thing they are. putting [00:49:00] online is not authentic, it will backfire basically in the first call. So, um, if you really want to attract people and then also the right people, you need to, um, develop a very, very authentic employer value proposition. And that's not an easy thing you need to really deep dive into the existing people.
So the best way is a combined top down and bottom up approach. You need to speak with your people. You need to align that with the exec team. You need to bring it together and then, um, you need to double check with your people again. Um, but, uh, what you develop is. okay for them. There will always be voices against that.
But if you have the majority saying that's exactly what I would kind of feel comfortable in saying about the company, you have done a good job. Um, and then you [00:50:00] can, based on that, You can create an employer branding campaign because that's authentic, uh, and you always need to see that the people you have in the interviews are the ambassadors of your company.
And if they do not live up to what you say, initially, um, you will lose all candidates, uh, in, um, in the short run, actually already. So yes, that's, um, that's the long story. And again, if you have everything set up in the kickoff call, it always comes back to the kickoff call. You are able to attract the right people for your team.
I want to add something maybe also very amusing and it's very fresh and it's about, um, Um, a company, uh, uh, which goes through a lot of, uh, you know, [00:51:00] change, um, and transformation. And they, um, put a lot of focus on the employer branding and, uh, during an interview, there were two people, right, um, a person was talking and the other one.
Just falling asleep. So what does that tell you? They were asking for the person, you know, advertising the company and, um, uh, admitting that they had some troubles, uh, regarding the, the talent acquisition. Uh, but during the interview, the guy fell asleep. So, Well, tell you about, about the value proposition.
What can they do? You know, ambassadors are inside of the company as well as, of course, people who are new [00:52:00] and you want to bring them in. I honestly don't want to belong to such a team of, I don't know, falling asleep guys. I could just imagine. The cultural, cultural fit. Screaming the complete night and you just couldn't hold yourself, but then, um, it's, it's up to the person to say, sorry, I know there's an interview, but I.
I cannot stay a week. Please find somebody different, um, to do the interview. Um, because if you don't, that's actually showing how much value the person brings towards the interviewing process, right? And that's also telling, um, how valued recruiting is in general. It's just seen as a necessity, but it's not seen as something that is Super important for company success.
And that's basically what recruiting is right. Without finding new people, [00:53:00] um, there is no, no way of scaling the company or developing new products. Yeah, exactly. All right. I have a question for you, Christian. Yeah. If you, if you remember Darina in, inside of the community, asked this questions like T shaped people.
Now I would like to link that to, Even, even the numbers that you have shared, like getting 4, 000 application, then selecting down to seven people employed. How, how do you make sure from both sides, because I think one part is the responsibility of the people that are applying. Like you mentioned in the, in the presentation that like everyone is applying everywhere and using AI to hammer out as much as possible application, which is most probably not the right approach.
And the other part is, as an organization, how do you make sure that you find out that like the people that are maybe [00:54:00] not 100 percent job title fit or tagline fit or whatever are still might be super good candidates. How would you approach that from both sides, maybe? Good one. So let's, let's start with the internal few first.
Um, it can be trained to evaluate a CV, um, properly that at least from what you read, the person brings the skills you're looking for. And it's. Luckily, still quite easy to tell an AI generated CV from a personal CV because the AI generated is 100 percent generic. There is no information in it whatsoever on the How good the person really is on the specific topic.
And I saw it several times now that it's really, it's, it's that marketing speech [00:55:00] translated into a CV and you can tell, um, and then you really have to, um, train yourself in, um, it's basically an AP testing, right? You see a CV, you think the person fits, you do the get to know call, you figure out the person.
Doesn't fit. Do it several times. It's work. Um, but then you figure out what's missing or what's wrong in the CV. Um, and based on that, you can filter out the next 20 CVs that have the same content. Let's phrase it. Let's phrase it like that. So, um, You get faster and and it sounds bad and it actually I think it really is bad, but a good recruiter will take a look at your CV for roughly 10 to 20 seconds.
Um, before he or she decides whether to take a closer look or not. Um, you can digest everything that's written there pretty, pretty fast. [00:56:00] And you have your mind map that is running in the back of your, of your brain to bring very different aspects together. Um, and that's, that's training. That's, that's a numbers game.
The more you see, the easier it gets. That was the first part. What was the second part? What was the first part again? It's like from the candidate perspective, how could they, let's say they see a job advertisement and what I have seen quite often that me as an experienced manager think like you are the exact fit for this position.
You might not have the title that is written there. But I think you have the skills and the capabilities. What would you recommend to the people? Well, there are so many recommendations and all of them are a bit bit fuzzy. I have to say from my experience, what's really helpful is Be [00:57:00] authentic. Um, and, um, if you have 20 years or 15 years of experience, you do not have to highlight the complete 15 years, right?
Highlight the stuff you want to do, uh, in the future. And if you have done that in the past, that's, that's okay. And being German, um, I know that Germans like to write their CVs in German. Focused on tasks. I did this. I did that. Um, which is nice, but it's kind of not telling you anything, right? So, um, really use real life examples on what you did.
if you want, why you did and what was the outcome. Um, for instance, uh, I had to revamp the recruiting process because, um, we had seven different processes in the company. Um, and it was measurable and the outcome was an increased time to hire of whatever 20 days from 80 to [00:58:00] 70 in the first six months, um, which is still bad.
Um, But you showed what you did. So there is an outcome to it. Uh, and honestly, do not put all the labels you have all the certifications. Nobody is interested in those certifications unless you need to have a clearance from the atomic bank. energy, um, association, right? Because you want to work in an atomic, in a nuclear plant, then it makes sense.
But I have 10 scrum master, um, certificates. Honestly, nobody's interested in that. Um, show what you did because people will read that. And that's, I guess, one of the biases you find in recruiters. The more of those very obvious things you have in your field of certificates, the more likely it is. that they will be rejected.
Um, because that leaves the impression of [00:59:00] I hunt certificates, but I actually don't work. Um, focus on your achievements on your tasks. Um, and you don't need to tailor your CV to every single company, because if you apply for the same kind of role, what you have to. is enough. Uh, and titles, a good recruiter can tell you that title A by Google means title C at Amazon and title D in Apple.
Um, those titles are also, they can speak about level, but basically they don't. Um, unless you, you, you use the, In like the company internal title and I happen to know the title structure, um, then they are telling, but for the rest, put in whatever staff engineer and then just say what you did and what your achievements were.[01:00:00]
Yeah. Put it simply. To that point, to that point in the future, would you be up in doing a CV breakdown with a couple of people? Yes, I can. Live? Live? You don't want to do that, but yes, I can. No, it, it just, because we have a lot of people that are looking for a job in the community, maybe it would be helpful to, Hey, these are the basics when you, this is how a recruiter looks at the CV, and then we just, just take a generic CV.
And you just give some tips for people to how to write it. Yeah, that I can, that I can do for sure. That their chances are increasing. I think that would be a huge help. That, that, that's something I can do for sure. Sorry. Maybe I can give you some insight. Uh, I, I don't know if that's actually a Christian's perspective on how to write a CV could be that relevant to all.
or to people coming from other [01:01:00] countries because in Romania, for instance, we have, uh, of course, we have a lot of CVs written in different ways, but we also, we also have the tendency to write on the past tense. I did that and I did that. I have only seen a trend, uh, uh, when, uh, we talk about the manager management level, so there, there you go, or for sales people, uh, they, they have the tendency to, to write down the achievements, you know, but that, that doesn't, uh, apply for just anyone.
Um, of course, if you have imagination, I appreciate a lot, uh, Uh, a unique, an original CV, but that's just me, you know, for the, for the overall, uh, for the other, uh, concerning other recruiters, I think they should, they, they are looking for other things, you know, so more [01:02:00] traditional. I've lived in Germany for three years.
I know the, I used to know the recruitment process and what they, what the demands were. And, uh, uh, yeah, that was very traditional, you know, the requests were very, I don't know, structured and, uh, yeah, I think it really depends the industry you work in. And, and then obviously the country, but I, I still think it's, it would be valuable to people in the community who struggle and maybe get always rejected to just understand.
Maybe it's the CV. Maybe it's applying to the wrong job as part of that as well. Um, just to do a session on diving deeper into that for community members. Maybe we can do it interactively, you know, to have a grasp or to have a specialized [01:03:00] opinion on why they got rejected in the first place. Maybe they don't use the keywords at the job description, you know, because you can find some clues there also.
That's something highly individual as well. So there are so many different opinions around, do you need the keywords from the job description or not? That, that, that's a longer debate, I would say, but overall, there is some, they're moving to a more globalized world. Also when it comes to hiring. Um, and there are some ways that, Might help you at least land an interview in, uh, in the engineer CV.
And on the other hand, you always need to ask yourself, right? That's a very traditional, um, company. I need to adapt everything [01:04:00] to land the interview there. Do I actually want to work there? Um, so that's the question you need to ask yourself at the very beginning, right? What kind of companies am I interested in?
And based on that, um, you then need to, to kind of create your, um, your CV. If you're more into tech and startup space, um, you need to do it completely different. Uh, not completely different, but you, you, you, they are want to read other things than a midsize German company based out of lower. Um, yeah, that's something you need.
That's, that's, um, stuff you need to learn before.
Andre. Yeah. You have a question for sure. Great to see you. Sorry, I'm late. I thought you were on a different time zone. [01:05:00] Yeah, I have a question for Christian. Of course, I have many questions. In fact, um, yeah, well, just listening to your discussion. First question would be how much do you believe in faith?
And I'll give a brief context about the discussion there used to be in Romania about 20 years ago, a commercial, uh, with, uh, with, uh, some two people getting together over a chocolate. And the line was something like, what is yours is put aside something like this. Like, and my wife is a recruiter and she's saying, okay, a recruitment process lasts about six months looking for a perfect fit and saying, okay, when you get the noise, like, what is it?
It wasn't meant to be, and it's like what is yours is put aside, you know? [01:06:00] What's meant to be, it's meant to be. So how much do you believe in this, this fate, this matchmaking of what is meant to be, in, in, in In this profession. That's the, that's a good question. Um, let's phrase it like that. I'm not a huge fan of that.
Um, because again, it leads me to what I said earlier. You need to define the role very, very clearly at the very beginning, and there you have a lot of experienced people sitting on the same table or in front of a shared screen, and you need to be also very honest and saying what you are looking for does not exist.
Um, and back it with data because you have recruiting data, you know, you recruited for similar rooms in the past, you have documented how often you pivoted. And you also know that setting with a focus on this skill set and minor in that is [01:07:00] achievable. You need to have that. And if you, um, have this, like the, the, the, the basis laid out properly, you'll be able to find a person.
Um, the only times when I could not find, um, a proper candidate, um, fast was when the role changed several times, when the scope was, was unclear. Um, when the hiring manager did not exactly know. Whom or what he or she was looking for. And as soon as you have it straight, it's not easy. That's not what I'm saying, but it's much easier.
And the chances of finding somebody are much higher. And then you can also reduce the, the timeframe from six months to, if you do it properly, four to six weeks, um, are enough to find the right person. So. [01:08:00] It's not a lot of fate. It's a lot of data information. If you have that from the past, you can project it and use it as, as a prediction for the future.
Okay. I'm building on what you're saying with going into more, um, um, um, an applied use case. I live through, um, an applied scenario. So this, uh, last spring, this spring, this year, um, I, uh, we, we opened the position in my team. I was supposed to recruit for it. I am, I was constrained to, um, um, CVs from internal in the company, from the bench, how it's called people who either want to change their role or, um, their project ended and they're waiting for a new opportunity, something like this.
So unfortunately it was a [01:09:00] moment where, uh, it took like one, two months to actually get one, two CVs, for example. So there was a bit of a time pressure because I needed a replacement fast for a colleague who was embarking on a more personal, beautiful project, a baby coming. So, um, I, I refused to based on experience, uh, junior, and then I took on a senior who was Great on the interview.
I spent with the guy three hours for three hours. I do two discussions I was so surprised. I mean he he also I mean seduced I would say And he was not delivering, you know Desirable answers actually his answers were on point It was very spontaneous. He was, he was giving original answers and he actually seduced me and two other seniors because I, [01:10:00] I was like, okay, it's too good to be true.
Let's bring another guy. Tell him perhaps I'm missing something or something. So at the end of the day, uh, it was an easy decision. However, it turned out to be six months later, one of the most difficult onboardings for us. Because when, when he got to, you know, the specifics and the details and the rigorousness of, of it all, uh, it's, it's left to be desired.
I mean, the guy only learns. Experientially, he does not read, he does not look at the videos, he does not join discussions. He only learns by failing and doing and it's, it's a hard knockoff life for everyone around him. So the only thing we can do is either I have the, my colleague who is like applying some tough love, which is not my style.
And at the same time, we can, okay, whatever we can give him to do, [01:11:00] because he will learn it. If it is not our role, just do it. Let him do so. Otherwise he wouldn't learn. So the question for you is, okay, I went through receiving desirable actions when hiring somebody. I went, I, I skipped that part. I, I broke the, you know, the chain of questions I interrupted, give me examples, give me when I was not happy.
I said no and so on, but in this, uh, in this situation, I just described someone actually seducing you. But in the end, the feet was looked good, but it took a lot of work afterwards in the, in the onboarding. I don't know. Maybe yes. Also you can weigh in on this or uh, uh, fi or Christina, I dunno, because it, it was such an interesting fail
It was a very nice, very beautiful fail that I can, I can tell you guys about , what this experience, I dunno if you can prevent this or, uh, well, [01:12:00] you cannot eliminate 100%. of failures in your hiring, there will always be someone where you just did not ask the right questions, um, or did not kind of have the right mood during your interview, whatever.
Um, the thing is, To be able to answer your question properly, I would need to take a look at the job briefing, what was the thing you are looking for, which questions did you ask, what did you check the candidate against. I have everything written down if you want. I guess, I guess you, you, you can, you can guess, uh, my, my director, right?
Um, yeah, you need to figure out, um, and develop a way to ask the right question. And I know there is, there are a lot of, [01:13:00] um, false positives and false negatives around, and you need to be able to discern where you are in that, uh, in that grid. Um. It's sometimes easier with sales people, right, because they, they, they can speak a lot, but they do not deliver against stuff.
Um, but again, with, um, the proper setting and the proper case study interview question piece in place, I imagine you would have. Or you could have found out that it's just speaking and not delivery. Um, I'm not, there is no, no one size fits all approach. There is no Holy grail. Uh, and sometimes you will just not be able to take the right decision.
And, and, and that's normal. Um, but you can eliminate [01:14:00] the, the, the chances to a certain degree. If you really have everything set up before. And internally, it's even tougher that that's, that's another layer because you just, it's the person who's already employed at your company, right? That the poor guy sitting on the bench for probably half a year and eager to work, right?
So you also want to please be a bit more pleasing than, than you would have been with an external candidate. Um, and. From from what you said, you were interrupting and asking for examples, and that's already a telling sign that this person is more on the loud speaking piece and not on the delivering piece, because if I was interrupting ask the question, how did you solve that?
Um, I would actually go into detail and say, that's what I did. And then I came upon that obstacle and then this happened, then I did this. And then I did that without being [01:15:00] prompted to look into that. Right. So, but I did, the interruptions were like pressure because we deal with the We are our role here is one too many customer is very aggressive and the interruptions are most a lot of the times impolite.
Um, and we needed to create somehow a kind of pressure on the guy, but without breaking him, you know, so. The interruptions were a part of this scenario, and he was actually, he did reply okay for all the interruptions and giving more details, and he was, I mean, it looked like the perfect match, but it's just a struggle afterwards, yeah.
Yeah. Sometimes shit happens. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Shall [01:16:00] we bring it to an end? We are already way over. Yes. I feel responsible for it. You joined later. That's why we did longer now. It's good. Tristan, thank you very much for your time, for the preparation. We'll put the recording up in the next couple of days into the classroom as well, so people can use it.
And, and rewatch it was awesome. Thank you very much. And yeah, let's, let's chat about that behind the scenes on CV review. That would be an interesting one. What, what we can do there that needs to be a bit more interactive, uh, and there has to be able to see, maybe it's like live review and feedback or something, but let's see.
Thank you. Thank you everyone. Thank you, Christian. Bye. Bye.
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Transcript:
Personal development masterclass. One of the topics that's dear to my heart, because of what I have seen over the last 15 years is that personal development is quite seldom in organizations. It's not really taken, uh, in a proper way, at least in my eyes. So that's why I'm really keen on sharing this today.
So we have two. main perspectives. One or two topics for today. One is personal development talk versus performance evaluation. And then we do a deep dive into how I'm doing personal development talks. And then we do questions in the end. Personal development. So we have one part, which is the personal development talk, and then we have the performance evaluation.
And a lot of organizations, focus on performance evaluation. And the difference between those two is that the performance evaluation, the main part they are focusing on, or the main source of that is the company. So the company is on the top. And from there, it goes into, the individuals and the different tasks that need to be done to accomplish what's happening in the company, what is required to do to be done in the company.
And the individual that is doing the task is the last point. And then inside of the performance evaluation, you're looking backward. So you look, how did this person perform in the past? The development talk is the opposite. So the most important part of the. Development talk is the future. Where does the person want to be in the future?
And it has nothing to do with the outcome of the company or where the company wants to be. The goal of this is, and why, why do this personal development talk? I believe that if we are developing people in organizations beyond what the organization needs, they will contribute more to the company. They will contribute better.
So the goal of what I'm doing with development talks is finding out what the people desire and going deeper into that. And we will have a look at that in the next couple of slides. And then look, what are the different tasks of the organizations that fit the person and what the person wants to be. And then you marry these two things.
And then it works as well from a performance evaluation perspective. So that's my perspective on development talk and performance evaluation. Let's go into personal development talk a couple of, I think it's almost two years ago or something. I've developed this in as, as a worksheet. So if anyone is interested in getting this worksheet as a PDF.
Happy to share that. So, the starting point of a development talk is really a setup of the atmosphere and the place. So you are going to do a development talk with another person. So you are the manager and the, the other person is like reporting to you and then you're meeting up. So what you need to make sure of is that you have, an appropriate place.
The best case is always doing this outside of the office environment in a. In a place where people feel well, the atmosphere is super important. The time of the day is important, not doing it on Friday afternoon, for example, when people want to go on the weekend, of course, you need to be aware of your relationship with the other person, depending on how deep your relationship is.
You of course have then a perspective on how deep you can go. And how much that is. And then what is important as well is that you put the note-taking responsibility to the person that is inside the room or is working with you. So me as a leader, I always give the note taking responsibility for the other person because then you see what they understand and what they get out of that.
And then I always do as well. A version in front of us so that people understand this. So printing out this worksheet as an example, if you do that in a physical space, then you print it out and then you go into the development talk. And the starting point of the development talk goes really wide.
Looking into what's the personal vision like. I always ask these as open questions without showing them the worksheet in the beginning. Who do you want to be? And that's very, very, very wide. Like, who do you want to be? What does it mean? Some people who have never had a conversation like this, struggle with this.
So they start with, yeah, I want to be a manager. I want to be something specific. So they go very, very, very specific and they don't really look into the future. So the first round of this, I just, Help them to find out who they want to be and they write down, they write down a manager. I want to be a good father.
I want to be whatever they come up with. And then I go to the next question and I show them the next question, not before. So why do you want to be that person? So then they're reflecting on the answers they have given and then they go back and refine who they want to go to be. And that's an interesting process because what.
You as the manager that is holding this development talk are doing, you're literally shutting up and just asking open questions to tell me more. How, how does that feel? What does that look like? What would that look like in the future? So you only ask open ended question when that gets the person talking and reflecting.
So if you're saying this, what does it mean? So, and then they're explaining, explaining, and they go in a loop between who am I going to be? And why do I want to be that person? So until they have clarity, and the first loop is always. The starting point where they don't know what's going to come, then who am I going to be?
They come up with high-level topics and then they go, Why do I want to be that person? Then they go back to Who am I going to be? And then they go deeper. And I always then give them a perspective. Okay, think about five years, 10 years from now, who do you want to be? And then they go more particular in all of these things.
And then we go, we don't close this, we keep it, we put it aside. And then we go to the next sheet, which is a personal development map. So I want them again to reflect on certain questions. And it doesn't matter in the order, I just take them clockwise right now. But it's really going and answering the specific questions.
What do I want to learn? So you're asking this, the person that is in front of you. So what do you want to learn to be that person? So linking it back to that person of the future. And then you're asking, what do you want to improve? And then they come up with things. So it's, it's like writing down the, all the different topics and then what do I want to leave behind?
And then they come back with topics that they want to leave behind. Another question is what excites you? Yeah. And then going deeper into this, who is important to them? And then what is important to them? And when you have done this circle, you go around it and they were deeper in this topic.
What quite often happens then if you ask them, so how, if we go back to the other one, is that still the same thing you want to be? Because they have now clarified what they want to be. and answer the question, they go back to this one and then clarify, no, no, no, I want to be this, I want to be this. What I always ask them, in this part is to paint a picture.
So when, when we have finished with this one, I go back to this one. And say, from a personal vision perspective, imagine a picture and describe the picture that you see on the wall. And then they describe to me who they want to be and who they are going to strive to be inside of a picture and explain everything that is around them.
I've had, for example, a person that told me where they are going to live, what, how it feels, um, in this picture, where the kids in this picture, where the wife or husband and, and going really into details and then linking this to. A job perspective as well, because in the end, we are at least this part is in a job environment.
So they are linking that to the job environment of who they're going to be working with as well. So these two are super powerful. And then you go into the next step, which is a goal perspective. So it starts with the staircase. So in the top right corner, we have what is the goal. And the starting point is really, um, defining that goal.
So if you want to be this person in five years, what is the goal for the next year for you to be very specific? And of course, you can do smart goal setting and all of that, but it's in the end, What does feel right for that person? What is the development goal they want to reach in one year from now?
And then they formulate that goal. And then you go to the bottom of this page where you look into where do you stand today on a scale from one to 10. So they're rating themselves on how close are they to that goal. If they're close, then they're at 10 or 9. If they're far away, then they're at 1. And what always happens is they're somewhere in between, obviously.
So when they have rated that, then you look into what are the things that get you closer to that goal, meaning moving your scale from 5 to 10. And that's what they are writing down above the stairs. So, above the stairs are the things that are getting them closer to their goal. And then they're defining this in bullet points and formulating that out.
And [you do that obviously all in a conversation. You ask the person who is doing the development talk, you are asking them questions to get them moving. You're asking them clarifying questions about the topics that are put, into the sheet. And then the next part is, what are the things that getting you further away from that goal?
So downstairs, if you think at it from a staircase perspective, and then they're writing these things down and then they have a clear picture of a goal staircase where they, they know they want, where they want to be linking that to the vision that's five years from now and the goal picture, and then they rate themselves.
And have then clear understanding of that are the things I need to do to get to my goal and that are the things I should not be doing. And then the last step of the development talk is getting specific. So now we zoom into one year and actionable goals that help them or tasks that get them towards the one-year perspective.
So what are the things they're going to do? When are they going to do this? What do they need to make happen to be able to do this? What are the things they need help with and how I'm, how they going to measure them? So it's a very, very simple setup where they write down literally the different steps that help them to get there.
And they're putting measurable goals towards the goal. And this is roughly. I would say one and a half hours, even if we go through this right now in a theoretical setting in, let's say 15 minutes in a real conversation, in a coaching style, where you ask the manager or coach the other person to find out what they are desiring and where they want to be.
It takes roughly one and a half hours if you do that well, sometimes it's faster depending on the relationship as well. The fascinating thing with this is it has zero to do with the company you work in and one hundred percent to do with who they want to be. And as well as zero to do with you as their manager, if you're their manager, like your perspective, your opinion on anything of that.
Um, just to give you a couple of examples, I've had people that told me that they want to be. building their own company in the next five years and they worked in the company and I was their manager they told me because they trusted me that they wanted to build their own company and we built a plan for how they were going to build their own company and I've had situations where people told me that they want to get married in the next five years and then we built a plan to get them towards marriage getting married and looked into how that does that work with the career perspective same with kids and all the other things so this is a development tool you That I use with everyone that is working with me over time because I believe that as further we as managers and organizations help people to develop as better it is.