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EP 226: Redefining Spaces and Minds: The Creative Synergy of Visual Storytelling with Natalia and George

In this episode I am joined by two incredible visionaries from the world of design and visual storytelling.

First up, we have Natalia Talkowska, the award-winning founder of Natalka Design. As a six-time TEDx Speaker and global strategic communications specialist, Natalia is reimagining the ways businesses captivate and compel. With the groundbreaking Doodleledo movement under her belt, she has revolutionized team building and empowered non-artists across 25 countries. Her clientele spans the British Government, the Royal Family, and top-tier FTSE100 brands. With over a decade in the industry, Natalia has made waves as a Creative and Art Director, Visual Innovator, and a distinguished guest lecturer at Central Saint Martins and Imperial College.

Joining Natalia is the incomparable George Berlin, an award-winning director known for his unparalleled aesthetic. George's projects are a testament to his knack for storytelling on a grand scale. From painting love stories on Sydney's facades to bringing Frida Kahlo's passion to life on the world's largest permanent digital display, his work is both enthralling and captivating. He has showcased his expertise on some of the world's most prestigious stages, from Romania's iMapp Bucharest Winners League of Projection Mapping to wowing audiences at BLINK Cincinnati, America's largest light festival. 

We delve deep into the world of visual storytelling with the talented Natalia and George. While Natalia's doodles engage minds visually, translating abstract information into tangible visuals, George's work transforms spaces, urging people to engage uniquely and innovatively. Together, they emphasize the essence of creativity, not just in what we see but in the entire process leading up to it. Both experts stress the importance of strategic innovation and the power of visuals in changing perceptions. Join us as we uncover the profound impact of visuals on human behavior, the importance of strategic questioning, and how everyone, at their core, is innately creative.

Guest Links: 

Natalia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliatalkowska/

Natalia Business: https://www.natalkadesign.com/

George on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgeberlinanimation/

George Business: www.georgeberlin.com

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Transcript:

(This Transcript is AI generated)

Hello, Natalia. Hello George. Welcome to the show. Great to have you.

Thank you. Hello.

to be here as usual.

We finally made it. It took a couple of months even I'm eager to look into creativity innovation today together with you. But before we go into what fun things you do from a work perspective, let's talk a little bit about you as individuals and then you as a group of innovative, crazy people. Ladies first. Natalia, tell us a little bit about yourself and start with how did you get to meet George first time?

Oh, why is it on me? Because we both

has to be the first

Right. Hi everyone. My name is Natalia Talkowska. I am from Poland. I live in London 15 years now, and I run a company called Natalka Design, and we do visual communication strategy, and we use all sorts of visual tools to help other businesses figured out their big problem could be through illustration, animation, VR projections.

Set design, you name it, we do it. So that's me. Now, how did I meet George Through the internet. Let's just leave it there.

I've heard about this internet before.

George tell us about yourself, and then you need to go deeper and how did you get to meet Natalia if she's

Excellent. Yes. I'll, I'll leave out all the gory details for later. Uh, so George Berlin, uh, my title is Creative Genius just because, uh, it's ridiculous and it's kind of fun. Um, so. Our big thing is, is just delighting people with, with, uh, visual art and creating wonder with immersive experiences. So we do that with, uh, projection mapping, 3D LED billboards, really large visuals.

Um, I also really enjoy, uh, hiding little tiny paintings of like monsters, like these little guys who are slightly bigger, but so I hide little tiny. Paintings of monsters all over the world. When I travel, I've hidden probably like 200 of them, uh, in the Chicago when everybody was, uh, in lockdown, couldn't go anywhere.

It's kind of a fun thing we all did together. But, uh, aside from those kind of adventures, uh, I think the Talia and I just met. On LinkedIn, you were doing some cool doodly things and, and making them all over and, you know, kicking butts and I was like, Hey, let's, let's talk and some things together was kind of the idea.

Awesome to get people understanding how you combine your superpowers. What are the things that you are doing together? Can you give an example of a visual explanation?

Uh, it was, I was pointing at you, but, uh, 

I. 

so what we're doing is combining her doodles and our projection mapping to do doodle maps, which is it can be live or, or pre-made, uh, big doodles mapped onto big, surfaces for, um, You know, marketing events, all the, all the things that we kind of do together.

My, my side is usually big events and hers are more commercial corporate events, so it's kind of a mashup of those two together. What would you add to that? Natalia?

It's awesome.

May, maybe one thing to add for people who still can't imagine is the, the size of this can be from a wall in a room to a house, and even bigger. Right?

Yeah, I mean, some of the things that we've done are, you know, 300 meters wide, you know, massive, massive buildings. So they can, they can go any, any size people are interested in it, you know, depending on what they, they need 'em to do.

So how do you end up with a huge building that is doodled, or however you call that, that is illustrated in different ways, and you project this on a huge wall, on a huge building. So one thing is that comes to my mind is yes, there's an advertisement opportunity, but I think there's more to that.

Why is it interesting for people to figure out what can you do in a different way?

You know, part, part of what, what I do is getting people to look at space differently. Um, so, you know, when we do buildings, it's not, uh, you know, we're not just plastering up a, a big video or a logo. It's, it's always a way to get people to engage with a space in a unique way. And I, I think it, it fits really nicely with what Natalia does because.

Her, her doodles are all about engaging people's minds visually with information that's being shared. So it's kind of a nice mashup of, of, you know, taking information that's shared and experienced differently and showing it in a way that really gets people excited and about the space they're in and how, how that can of mix up their, uh, you know, their thinking process in an innovative way.

Natalia, if we bridge this to you, you are not just starting. Okay. I'm doodling a little bit on the side and things are ending up at the wall. Give us a little perspective. How things are working. Let's imagine I'm working with a retail organization and we have stores all around the world in different ways, and you help us understanding a little bit more how we can innovate through your doodling and as well projecting that. How would you guide us understanding, hey, you could do things differently.

Well, you can do things differently by looking at your information. So something else happens in the brain when we just talk and exchange ideas and something else happens in the brain when we see what we talk about, where we can see a story coming together, suddenly our ideas and thoughts are not just a mix of, John said this and Anna said that, and after the event or after the workshop, Or a meeting, I have no idea what's been said or there's been some notes sent, but no one's engaging with that and all those sort of challenges and, um, silos that companies experience.

So first of all, we're just working with the first language that humans are used to, which is visual. Most of us, if we're giving eyes and they work. We all connect with visual and something happens where we feel more heard, we feel more connected, we feel more understood. Hey, my thought is on the wall.

Whoa. That means something, I hope. And some sort of different connections, uh, come together when we see something starting on the left and coming through and finishing on the right, and suddenly we have this journey of our conversation and action points and whatever else that you want us to focus on. So it's just a very, very powerful tactical tool that's been used in many different ways behind the season companies and big ones that I wouldn't think that that's where it would even lead to. 

And I'll, I'll throw in. I, I think it, I think it really connects with, with projection because lot of, you know, I've also done live drawing as well. That's part of why Natalia and I met. Um, I, I think it's, it's because. What, what they do is take a, a big massive hour's worth of, communication and, and, you know, bring it down to just the few ideas that matter.

And projection mapping is always about, uh, it's about impact and, and feeling. It's, it's, it's getting, you know, the visual story to, to say just what it needs to and to affect people. Emotionally, which is what a lot of the, you know, a lot of the ideas that you get into in your events, it's like people get excited about something and we wanna connect those two.

Yeah. I think if we think about creativity, let's say I have worked in a couple of larger organizations and creativity is not the first thing everyone in a larger organization would say when it comes to innovating. It's often more about how can we save cost? How can we do this, how can we do that, which is already predefined.

What you're going to do, what you do, if I understand that right, is opening up the mind in a completely different way than we are used to with, let's say, business model canvas or any other things that all the innovators have read in different books out there.

Yeah, I mean we, we like to almost stay away from, we're creative. That is almost like the given whilst you're experiencing this work with us, I always like to say, let's strategize differently. Who said that? All the ways that you used are great and why are even, let's say, coming and knocking on our door if everything's working great, I.

So something must have like caught your eye and created an itch to do something differently. So once we get into the strategy and answering those really important questions and getting to the core of what's wrong or what could be better, that is already the creative process. So we always say it's not just the visuals and we don't want the client to be kind of removed from that experience and like we're the talented ones.

You are not creative. The whole conversation from starting to the end is creative and it's kind of, again, for me, it's about getting in everyone into that room, like we're all invited. Everyone's creative at the core. It's not about, I take photographs and you draw and you cook well, or you ride a horse really amazingly.

We're all creative. It's just how we use our brains to come up with ideas and to connect the dots, and yes, we'll be your vessel to put that together beautifully for you. I'm always about empowering my clients to go through that process, from the first questions

I will add to that, you know, people talk about creativity and, and I'll use Apple 'cause everybody uses them. You know, people talk about how innovative the iPad was. It, it's not that it was designed beautifully. I mean it was, the whole point was, you know, they, it was creative in the ui, which is a really, it's not a very, you know, creative looking experience to design a ui.

It's, it's moving buttons around and it's thinking about how. you know, where you put things and how things work. So, you know, a lot of what we do is just, you know, like she said, we're the, we're the means to express it or get it out of you. But the creative process is something everybody can, can be a part of.

You know, it's, it's, it's like where, you know, where do, where do you put your, your car or the driveway in your house is a creative process. You know, it's, it matters to, you know, and, and you can innovate. Things like that. It's kind of sounds silly, but it's.

Yeah, I think that's, that's something I would like to double down as well, because I have worked with a lot of creative people in different ways, people who are using visuals and so on. And often it is you're reduced to, let's say, if we take you Natalia to the drawing, hey, you are the person that is drawing and that's totally awesome.

But it it, like you said, it's just a tiny, tiny piece of the puzzle. It's not the drawing that is the most important. That's maybe the thing you will remember most, or a part of what you will remember because you have it in front of you. And. In a visual aspect, but it's the totality that makes the thing moving in the right direction and makes it innovative.

Yeah, totally. I'm fascinated by the psychology. Why do we care? Why do we look at things? Why do we slow down on certain things and. We don't care about the others. I'm all about human behavior. So it really starts from the first questions. Like my goal in any first conversation with someone is, wow, you asked really good questions.

I'm like, well, get us on board. There'll be more. But really the visual outcomes. We don't wanna sound cocky, but they'll be beautiful 'cause you're working with experts and visual so they'll be beautiful no matter what. Whatever we choose, let's make this amazing. But it's about that first part that everyone feels heard and everyone's part of that process.

And we are empowering these people to make these decisions for themselves. So even if we work with George and we're looking at a big space, we want the clients to tell us where should what go? And why does it matter? 'cause we don't know. It's your space. Tell us. So it's all about that kind of leading them through that process.

That's fascinates me.

Yeah. And I, I think of, you know, what, what they do or, or, or what we do is, is just the visual is simply a, um, Taking the real, the revelation that you get and making it so people can see it, you know, and getting, getting to the revelation is really what, what we're after, you know, just putting into a visual form lets people understand it and put it together themselves, but that's really what, what people are paying for.

And that's true because if we talk about larger organization, it's about the effect that things have afterwards. I. And the journey is just a part to get there. If we talk about the journey, and you scratched it already from a storytelling perspective, what is the power of storytelling for those who have not really digged into that from the listeners.

Human connection. People will care if they hear a story or a seer story if it's purely based on numbers or you know, data or something. Yes, we all will look at a graph if you tell us to. What is that graph telling me? What

is the story behind it? 

graph.

Well, we're out of it, but to me it's all about human connection.

Whether you're Coca-Cola or whether you're a tiny one man business, people will connect when you've got a story on any level story about your product and or service story about your personal brand story about how you started. It has to have a start, middle, and end. And that's what visuals really, really, really help with.

Um, I'll, I'll tie into that because I've been working on a, projection mapping series that's about, uh, learning to love the earth again, and ecology and climate change and all that. But I'm not, like Natalia's saying, I'm not showing figures. You know, we're, we've lost this much, uh, icebergs in the last 20 years.

You know, it's, it's all about making people. Uh, you know, connecting their feelings to these animals and, and the, the places and, you know, seeing how making them feel something when they see the visuals of things disappearing. You know, that, that I think, connects with a lot more people than I. Uh, if we just, you know, put a bunch of numbers up there and said, oh, here's what's happening.

You know, nobody, everybody knows things. Nobody, nobody does anything until they feel something about it. I think that's one of the things people don't realize is, you know, we, we have a lot of information. It's not until you have an emotion that you wanna actually do something thing.

Okay why should larger organizations use you instead of the obvious big four consultancies?

Because it's different,

In which sense?

In a sense where the process from the get go is not very much as far as I'm concerned, my experience with the Big four, and I will always speak about them very fondly because we sometimes work together. So these are. Great people, uh, in terms of that I know for many years in teams, but it's a different scale

it's such a large scale that they work with sometimes details and sometimes kind of getting into that core wants and needs of that client. All can't be met at the same time because it's such large scale projections and often it's, there's. It's kind of like, this is the way we do it. This is the process.

You're gonna go through this process. We're gonna get there. Here you go. Huge report at the end. Voila. At least that is often the feedback that we've been getting when we're involved into parts of strategic decisions and visuals. Not many times visual communications is used in a I would call it tactical way.

Often it's used in a pretty way. Let's make something look very pretty, but it doesn't do its job. It doesn't have a strategic angle to it. My focus is where can this visual help you? What can it do for you? Can it make someone. Respond, can it get you a buy-in to the person that you wanna speak to? Can it get your foot through the door to the mp?

'cause you want to change the policy in your world because something's really not working and you're stuck in your business. So for me, I'm into that sort of looking at visual communication more in a very tactical way. And as George was mentioning, Also emotional way. 'cause that all connects, people will care when they feel some emotions.

Otherwise they'll be like, eh. So I think that that's where there's a difference. We really, really are looking at that sort of, okay, let's get them to feel something and tell me what it is that you want.

Can you give an example of something that happened where you used a visual as a tactical tool from your past?

totally. I can't give the details because my head would be cho off the amount of NDA sign weekly. But on a very much so when we work with a government or when we work with organizations that need to speak to government, that's fascinating to me. Say there's an organization that really wants to make a difference in the city and they need mps buy-in and we send instead of 30 pages of reports and those graphs and everything that's amazing and needs to be read.

We sent one visual of the story of how working with that organization will make a difference. To this community, for example, again, I'm sorry, I can't give more. And suddenly after sending that visual or two to the right people at the right time, we get a meeting with them, we get a call with them, we get quicker into their space because they never seen it, because they see that we approach the topic very differently because they were actually explained it very easily.

That issue. When they need them, because otherwise everyone else is sending 500 pages of something and they just don't have the capacity. They don't. So at those high stakes kind of levels, that's why I'm really curious because we're working with the tiniest, tiniest time from these people and attention span, and it really needs to learn differently.

And then you can add your amazing slides. Do not worry. They're not gonna go to the bin. They're important. They're not gonna start with feeling emotional or like they want to help about seeing a graph or another email. So that's been really powerful and really, really, uh, interesting for me to see what's going on behind the scenes in communication between people.

From a process perspective, are you then looking as well, what, what the stakeholder that is receiving this drawing would think about the specific things to be able to translate the messages in the best way. How would you do that from a process perspective?

Oh, totally. We look at the outcome, we look at the receiver. It's all about the receiver. It's not even, I often say to the client, it's, I know you wanna say all these things. It's so important, all of these things, but let's think about that person. What is it that is very important to them to have that conversation with you?

Everyone is wired to get some benefits from any sort of connection and interaction. That's just human nature. That person didn't become an MP to just like, you know, randomly get emails from people. They want to make a difference at the time that they're in that seat. And you have only a few seconds, so what could be very interesting to them?

So, okay, for example, we look at their latest campaign. We look at what they're saying in press, we look at their latest comments with journalists. We look at the sort of planning that they have in place for this quarter, and we connect the issue. We connect the person, the receiver, and we think about this kind of very actionable, tactical piece of, uh, communication that we can send.

Love that. And I think that's, that's where you just explained the power of doing that in a strategic, tactical way rather than using your words, having a pretty drawing, which, yeah, it's nice. It's pretty to look at, but it's not helping to get the organization or depending on what you work with into a different mindset, into different ways of thinking.

George, from your perspective, if we look at large scale illustrations, The things you do. One of the things you have on your profile is immersive audio experiences. How do you link that with each other? 

So we talk a lot about music for your eyes. Some of that is, is about the visuals, but it's also. We do a lot of very, musically connected, uh, visual experiences. A lot of what we design starts with, um, the music.

Sometimes it's a custom orchestral score that we create for the story we're trying to tell. So sometimes the visuals we. We work on, we actually design them to tell the story strictly from the music first. Um, and I, I think partly because deal with a lot of really international audiences, that's a great way to get to people.

you know, like Natalia says, I, you know, I only have a few minutes in front of people with what I do. You know, they might watch it 10 times in, in a night, but they, you know, it only, they may only see it once for three minutes. And we have to, we have to go and really. Get to them, and quickly. And, and I think, I think music is a great way to impact people emotionally. You know, working with a story that's told by the music. Uh, and we also work on experiences that live musicians or live dancers. It's, it's another way. To get our story across to people in a, in a sort of an innovative because it's, it we're putting, we're putting creativity in places they're not expecting it.

You know, like, uh, one example, we did a, a show here in Chicago, 150 foot long l e d sculpture screen that's built into this, the lobby of this, uh, corporate, residential building. And we brought in, uh, like a 20 piece orchestra perform the score while, while we were playing. And it just, it helped to make people really.

Uh, take a step back and, and notice, you know, it's even, even then there were still people that were like, I'm going to my office. I'm pretending like there's not an orchestra or dancer's like right here in the lobby with me. You know, the guy delivering sandwiches or something was just, he is just kept going.

I mean, it's, and there's so much of that. I mean, I'm sure Natalia gets this too, and in corporate meetings, you know, it's like three o'clock. They've been there for six hours and these guys are, you know, they're like checking out. You know, they need. They need something creative to, to wake them up. Um, so that's, that's kind of where we work in a lot of the, the different senses is that it's, it's another way to get to people.

Yeah. From a designing perspective, what, what is the, the difference between when you design this short form experiences on large scale to what Natalia was just explaining, or is it similar 

You know, I, I think it's, I think it's kind of similar in a way, but we, we, uh, one of the things we have to work on a lot with, even with our big scale experiences is we don't know when people are gonna arrive. You know, you're doing a lot of what I do is, is for public events. So it might be a, a festival that's sponsored by the, the chamber or the council in that area that says we wanna get people out to.

To enjoy the neighborhood and, and go eat things and drink and, and people come and go at, you know, what we do plays over and over all night. So you never know when somebody's gonna gonna walk in. And that's, I think that's part of when we're designing for things like with Natalia, is that we don't, you know, you don't know where people are gonna be when they experience it, which part they're gonna start in.

There's a little bit of chaos, I would say, in that, you know, you're not sure where people are gonna begin. It's not like, uh, Going to the movies, you know, it, it would feel like if you went to the movies and people just walked in whenever they felt like it, you know, you, you can't really build an arc on some things if you're not sure where people are gonna begin.

So it's, it's sort of a case of having to make every moment, say something on its own is, is part of what I think we, is the parallel between those two. And maybe Natalia can add to like how you design when people are looking at different parts of something.

I add to that, it's like about making every moment count. It is just some of these pieces, yours are moving. Ours are sometimes still, but when it's animation, it also goes, I mean, to be fair guys, it's all about looping, often. Loopings, you know, makes everything easier. So of course, as you said, it's just like going to an art exhibition.

I'm not promised that when I enter the room, I'll sit down and it'll start when I'm ready. Right. So it's about kind of, okay, I'm in this space. There's a story being told. I don't know if I got it from the get-go, but actually maybe the best thing you can observe in people coming into a space or looking at a building is when they stay to see what was happening from the beginning.

I think that's the best kind of comment there and feedback.

Yeah. And if, if, if we use your example, George, where people are walking by and pretending not to see or to to feel or whatever, I'm pretty sure they still do.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean even, you know, some of the things I do, they're so massive. You, you can't ignore them. But even, you know, the projection mapping I do, you can feel like physically feel on your body, the light coming off of that building. You know, I, I'm absolutely affecting them. And, and you know, maybe, maybe somebody's gonna have a slightly better day because they were there, but you know, you, you really can't avoid it.

I mean, that's part of what we do, I think is, is we make art that people can't look away from. 

One thing is doing that with a live audience. And one thing is doing what you said, Natalia preparing something for someone who has experienced something where you are not there, like the person who is receiving this drawing or this person is not like, you're not introducing and helping the person to, to go through.

And the other part is you doing that in a live session. You doing that, uh, with a live audience. What is the difference for you as a person doing it, but as well for the people who were experiencing it.

You know, with any sort of life interaction, it's all about that wow effect, that theatrical moment, that emotional emotive piece. So that's kind of almost the first thing that if we know that that's what the client wants, that that will do the job, it's always that, wow, what's happening in front of me?

It's coming to life. All that sort of reaction. And, and it's lovely to be part of that energy because of course, uh, it's beyond kind of almost like feeling that you're doing something great for people. But it's great to observe their reactions because some of them get curious, some of them come up to it, it's a conversation starter.

They get excited, they want to add something or take away so, It can be something in the same room, but equally it can be online through Zoom, and we just screen share and you can see those little eyes popping and following ideas and saying, okay, no, but I want something bigger here on the left. And there's always some sort of personal moment to it, which we really enjoy.

That brings everyone together. It's that collective building that's part of it that I think it's really the big value when it comes to preparing something for someone and we have no idea how they're gonna receive it. It's. The feedback comes back most of the time, very, very positive. Or, um, we get to hear what they have to say or we get to then hear afterwards when, for example, that MP does want to have a meeting.

It, it can even come with a comment in the email in terms of, I've never seen anything like that. I want to see you next month. Let's talk about it. Of course these ones are less interactive with us, but it's all about then the receiver. We really focus on making it simple, making it understandable, making it easy to grasp in a second, and I always think about like for people to help them think about creating these pieces.

Imagine that he can't speak your language. He is not from the same even culture that you are. What can you visually put that in a second, will make him or her understand what it is that you're trying to say? So, are these colors, are these, uh, the visuals also are, is that the shape of the story? Are you creating a landscape?

Are you creating a kind of a vision from left to right? Are, what are you doing to make them go? Oh, Because it's very easy and quickly, uh, for us to present something without even understanding the language. And that's also another value of these pieces, where it goes beyond the language and the culture, where we're from and what we believe in.

And same what George said, these buildings, I look at these projections and it doesn't matter where I'm from or what I think or what imar, I don't know, values or ideas about the world. We all can connect in that moment.

Making things different. if we go a little bit on a meta level, If we look into the future. What are the things we need to do different as society, as innovators in this world? 

I'll say 

I. 

about where we're going with innovation is, I'm excited that are trying a lot of new technological things just for the sense that it gets people I. Uh, starting off in different directions than they normally would. I mean, I'm sure Natalia sees this all the time as well, which is, we're gonna do the same event we did last year, but we want something slightly different.

We're innovating, you know, and, and uh, that drives me a little crazy because sometimes I would love to, you know, just meet someone and say, Hey, let's tear your whole event apart and pretend like you've never done in your life. just design a whole new thing. Um, and I, I think, you know, people can say a lot of things about AI art or digital this or that.

but if nothing else, it gets people starting in a slightly different direction, which I, I love about the way people are, some people are using it, you know, it's, and I think that's a great way to look at a lot of technology is like, where can it get you at a different starting point than where you start every single time you do this?

Yeah, I mean, I, I add to that there's a lot of kind of sentiment around arts and creative people, creators in general, oof ai. I am scared of it. What's going to happen with my job? I. And I, I add to that we use on a regular basis now tools like Mid Journey for example, for quick concepts and clients love it and it's nothing.

No one's firing me. They're actually even more impressive. We're doing it 'cause they have no time or capacity to even look at these programs. And that's going to continue. It's not as if, again, let's go back to my famous mp. He's going to sit down or she, and just open the journey, try to code some stuff because, no, we just know that it's.

In that sense, it's all about playing with different, as you said, George, starting points and what can be the outcome and not being scared of it. We talked a lot about, uh, before even this call about the risk. You know, a lot of companies are so worried about the risk, and I totally understand that, especially if you run a big business, that's number one thing.

Why you wouldn't go for something different or for something completely that you haven't done before. But how about putting processes in place? I, I promise you, creative people have processes in place, and if they don't, maybe that's what you should be rethinking who you work with. And that can bring us to some guarantees that can bring us to a place where even if it's different, there's still process in place that is bound to create some outcomes.

There's no way if we don't do X, Y, Z, that we're not gonna be at A, B, C. Now, let's see if the A, B, C is what you want. Um, but as, as George said, break it apart, that's different. Not that you're gonna change some chairs next year or even the venue. So I would love to see more and more radically different ideas actually, it's just what I said at the beginning, kind of before we started this. The risk is, is the risk not doing things bigger than doing things differently?

And what I, what I wanna add to that too is I, I love the idea of, uh, people understanding that a creative and innovative. is a profession. It's a skill, you know, and, and you wanna leave, you wanna leave innovating to people who can imagine for a living. There's a whole class of people whose job is to not imagine anything exciting.

You know, there are people that have to, you know, manage, uh, garbage trucks going around. You don't want a creative way to track, you know, something like that right in the moment. Um, you know, you want creative people to, to be given creative work to say, Hey, let's take. We need ideas. Let's give these to people whose, whose job is just to imagine amazing things, which is what we do for half of our day, is it's not just the, the creative output, it's the way, the way we design, the way we look at things is it's all like, we're the professionals at this.

Like the same way you would hire, you know, somebody in it to design your new computer system.

What would you say to a person that is a decision maker? How do you, how do you get this person over the edge to say, Hey, let's do something a little bit more creative, a little bit more crazy than you would normally do.

You either know them well and if you don't, I always ask, how big is this problem? What if we don't do it? And that's when they kind of shift. Because if it's not a big problem, if it's not something really that they need to push through the, you know, through that edge to the team or to that stakeholder, or the campaign needs to really fly or they'll lose millions, if it's not something really big.

You are right Jens. Maybe it's not the right time, maybe it's not the right moment. Let's find the right moment. The big moment. So I like to kind of play sometimes reverse psychology and we just go into really that deep reason and it's always something else actually. Then they came with, and it's not always about money.

It's not always about, well we need to, you know, get to that number. No, it's sometimes on the very actually human level. Where the team doesn't care. The team is not showing up. They don't believe in that strategy that we put together. No one's really ticking off those milestones, or the stakeholders are kind of, nah, we're not seeing any progress and not communicating with us enough or this or that.

So often it's actually on the human level issues that they need to solve. Otherwise, there will be this big risk that everyone's scared to talk about.

I, I like to think that it, it's really hard to do something slightly different. Like you have to take people too far and bring them back again is usually what, what'll happen. Like nobody wants to do it like 10%. They want to like, show me something crazy and then let's take some pieces out of it so that we can manage getting there.

Yeah. One of the things or experiences where I was part of couple of years back, um, as part of an innovation project, we prototyped a different business model and as part of doing that, we did something over the edge. So we designed an experience inside of a shopping center with a couple of creative innovators and the local community.

Which was not at all standard and would never going to be accepted as being the standard, but that was the way to get them thinking in a completely different way. 'cause it meant them, Hey, we are building a store out of cardboard and the cardboards are painted ourselves. And behind the cardboard there is a music player and the music player is playing a song with five words you're saying to the music player.

So, Completely things out of the context of the peoples to get them a little bit into a different mindset, into a different world, and what happened after that? What was interesting years after people still speak about that experience and what that made to them so that they were more open to, let's say, a little bit normal, more innovative topics than they would ever be before.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even going back to what you were asking about the big four consultancies, I, I think part of, part of our appeal is that we're not, we're not from the business world. We didn't start there and go this way. I think about this a lot because I work with a business consultant on my business, and my favorite part of working with him is he doesn't care about creativity.

He, he wants to know everything I talk about, but he'll say, but are you making money? You know, and, and that's like, I need that. For me, but I feel like the businesses also needs people like Natalia and I to come in look at what the issues they're going through that aren't in all of that, you know, that like, you know, we're not career MBAs.

We don't, uh, spend all day like going over, you know, uh, KPIs and other stuff like that. We're, we're trying to find ways to do things that are, that are meaningful and connect information for people and make people experience something different. So I think, I think it's, part of it is like we're a fresh.

Set of eyes in a really, really different way than how they think. I mean, I, I, I, you've probably experienced this, Natalia, you go to a corporate event and people are like, oh, you're so creative. You're drawing a picture. And it's like, like this is, you know, like every Tuesday for you and I, but for them, it's the biggest thing in the universe to, to like do anything like that.

Yeah, and I think there's something also once we get to work with them in a meaningful way, and I always have to say that 'cause there's always these comments. Well, we have an in-house design team and we're like, that's great. Do not hire me for what they do. They're great at what they do. We do something different.

We wanna partner up and help you with the big problems. So the appeal then I see starting that people start thinking differently. Slowly but surely when there's a new brief or there's a new conversation or some sort of plan to act on, they don't just come back with a call or the driest email in the world.

Suddenly someone sends a sketch or someone suddenly sends like, what if we could do this? And I'm like, Ooh, dots are connecting. Something's happening and I almost want us. Step lower and lower and lower in that space for them to kind of, what about that? What about this? And yes, then again, we empower that we vessel, that we, I call George or you know, we make things happen.

But it's about them starting to think, I don't have to be a designer or a creative visual artist. To make these differences, but I can be empowered by these new ways of thinking and connecting, and I'm just upskilling myself in the way I think and the way I work, and the way I create outcomes for the business and for myself.

Yeah, and me coming from the business world, I still believe there's huge business opportunities with doing it in a different way and doing it through more creative way. The tricky thing for us business people, it's often that you can't measure that straight away. Like there's not a K P I that gives you, after.

People have seen it twice, then you know, that's the outcome. X, Y, z I think that's a more, it's a longer process. It's a more human element of it, which makes them, creates feelings like you, you both said. And this feelings will make the person think differently. And because the person thinks differently, the person acts differently, and then the person does things differently and the impact is there. It just, the change reaction is not that visible.

And on that note, yes. 'cause I do like a bit of data and, and I like that challenge. If someone tells me that, well how do I measure this stuff? You know, like, tell me 'cause I need to tell the boss. And I totally understand. I like to think more like a business. And first of all, we always like to ask, well, was the success, imagine we've done it.

What is the success? If it's not that Tamara can give you, as you said, numbers and KPIs and everything. Um, they will describe it and usually where it comes down to is the engagement levels, is the number of people that will talk about this event or this. Moment for years, and it's how many people actually showed up and how many people then respond to me and all those kinds of things.

And I like to play with the whole investment versus return on engagement.

Yeah.

There's no investment. If people don't care. Again, it all connects. So don't get me wrong. After we do surveys, after we go for feedback, after we look how many people actually showed up after we asked the people what did they like, what didn't it they like?

So it's all still measurable in that respect. Um, but I always kind of ask them what's the success? And what they say is actually they, they're not after the numbers, weirdly, they're after those emotive emotional human parts. We get to help them with. So I like to kind of challenge that a lot and test myself to make sure it's not kind of fluff.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean we've, we've done, uh, post interviews with clients for large events and it's always sure, you know, there, there's an economic impact report of the event, you know, how many millions of dollars they got back. But it's also, you know, you talk to the mayor of the city and he, I. Tells you how many people he talked to that have never been to that corner before.

Like that sort of thing is, is harder to get to, but it's, you know, like that's the important part is getting, getting people talking and excited about what you're doing. I mean, it's, it's kind of like measuring, you know, if you put a nice painting in the doctor's office, so you're gonna get better reviews, you know, it's people, you know, it's like you can't measure by how sick people are.

It's like, do they like coming here? You know, that's a hard thing to quantify.

Yeah. So let's, let's get us into the last part of the podcast where I'm asking questions, two questions specifically that might be connected or not connect to what we discussed so far. So first question, if you can work with a project that is impacting every human being on earth. What project would you choose to work with and why would you like to work with that project?

 For us, it would be completely something in terms of sustainability. And, and I don't wanna go into details because the, the world, the word is so big. Um, I'm fascinated about the use of plastic in the world and how about the materials that we use and how that impacts the world. Like literally today I had a conversation about like, where is all that stuff going every day from this big city that we don't see?

Where is that going? That's doesn't poof, disappear. So I always think of like super into the future. Yes, I'll be on this planet for hopefully however many more years. Sorry guys. You have to endear me for a bit more. But what happens to the next humans and the next humans? They, you know, so I always, I'm fascinated and I want to be more part of that conversation.

We're already a very sustainable company in terms of what we do. It kind of doesn't exist if you want me, you know, to not make it exist. Everything is digital if you want it to be. All that stuff we're already doing great, I would say, but I want to be part of the bigger conversation. So how can our work empower all these.

Solve these big issues, so been doing more and more projects in that space. And I sleep tiny bit better at night, although there's so much to be done.

Great one, George.

So one of my favorite things to, to look at is just how interconnected all of the world is and all of the people in the world. You know, we, we work all over the world, so maybe I have a different perspective, but one issue that's really been on my mind is just how much of the world so far from each other can affect one another in really serious ways.

And I, I think a lot of people don't know. What life is like for people in certain kinds of places in the world. Uh, you know, like first world countries and, and third world. I think people, a lot of people don't understand each other. You know, how people live on the planet and how, how all of what we do affects.

You know, the earth and the animals and, and it's like those big connections are, are part of what I'm working on with my current project, which is called Eco Connections. That's a great name. Right. Um, so it, it just talks about, you know, like where, you know, where does that stuff go? It might end up in the Pacific Ocean somewhere with, you know, with a penguin sitting on it, or you mean, who knows what's going on?

I mean, it's, uh, like we have to think about those things and, and it's not just, you know, what little things we do, but the whole big idea of. You know, we're all connected to each other. This, you know, there's only one atmosphere. The water all sort of goes to each other. We need to, we need to think more about that.

I, I would love to, to do just a, you know, big projects on those kind of things would be exciting.

We're aligned. George, as always,

That's good. Next question, what advice would you give to a young innovator that's just getting started? Let's start with Natalia.

show your work. The famous book says, Austin Cleon, love that book, old school, but highly recommend show your work. Like I, there's no way I would start what I do if I didn't say to few Hu humans around me or tweet few humans around me that I really like this thing. I'm feeling very passionate about this thing.

I think it's important. I have these skills. Can I help? So I know a lot of young people. I mentor a lot of people who are scared. Imposter syndrome. Don't think they're good enough. It needs to be perfect before they can post anything. And I don't think anything's perfect in this world. I am always progress over perfection.

Share, talk to people and someone will click. And even if in the room of 100 people, one person says, oh, I know someone you could speak to, or, how about reading that? Or How about going to this event or showing it here? You have no idea where your life can go, and I am the living proof of that. So I live and breathe that mission to share with others.

George.

I, I would say, uh, a couple things. First of all, make a lot of garbage, make, make a lot of really bad work. Um, even projects I work on, you know, a, a big massive epic projection. You know, I'll go through hundreds of drawings just to, just to get to the idea of what I'm gonna make. and I know a lot of people are afraid of, like Natalia said, it needs to be perfect.

It needs to be good. You know, make, make junk and throw it out. I mean, I, I, I I try to get as many ideas as possible working on a project. You know, go, go everywhere and anywhere you can. Um, and I, I think something that's connected to that is, Uh, get a lot of inspiration. You know, I, I like to, you know, follow blogs.

I like to follow things that are outside of my area. Totally. You know, I'll look at a, a guy who makes art with like colored nails or string or, you know, all kinds of things like installation art is, is amazing. There's so many people doing so many strange things that have nothing to do with what I do, but they're really.

Inspiring and, and it's, it's just great to like see as much of it as you can and, and, and just dig into what's possible.

 I love the, the non-obvious connection. That's, that's for me, always an interesting thing. Where like innovation and sport, uh, for example, there's like, yeah, there, there are things in common if you dig

The famous exercise like what if Nike made a car, right? That's that. Straightaway you go like, whoa.

Yeah. Awesome. Any last comments for the listeners? What you would like them to do, what you would like them to think differently after this conversation? Anything specific?

I would say listen to a podcast or read a book or join a event that you wouldn't normally. Completely out of your comfort zone, the topic that you don't really know about or haven't thought about. Let's spread our wings a bit. I'm trying to do that and I think it really helps. 

One thing I try to do a lot is look at the world as, uh, through the lens of possibilities, and some of that is just, uh, trying to see what things could be as opposed to what things are. That sounds a little, little vague, but a lot of, a lot of what I do is try to keep like a soft. Grip on reality, and I would really recommend that to people.

Like try to see, you know, what could your backyard be? What do you, what do you think the, uh, the birds are, are doing? What do you, what do you think people are doing? What, you know, look at, look at the world as, as what it could be as opposed to just what you see it as, as something I like as terms of creative innovation, as something that I try to do a lot is just see what things could be.

Super Natalia George, thank you very much for joining me today for the show. It was a pleasure having you.